JeepLab Prodigy Install LIVE

[JeepLab]

Hey everyone!

Follow us on instagram as we run thru the prodigy turbo install in real time.

We are about 2 hours in right now.

[JeepLab]

http://instagram.com/jeeplab

[UselessPickles]

I wish I could be there. I'd like to see how they accomplish things compared to how I did them. How many things did I do wrong, or just the dumb/hard way? How many cool little bits of info about the kit are being discussed?

[UselessPickles]

Well? Have you driven it yet? Initial driving impressions?

[jeepsking]

Wow intercooler . Any updates of availability. Thanks ross for the posts

[JeepLab]

Yea I drove the hell out of it.

Its an impressive until. Full article coming.

[UselessPickles]

Its an impressive until.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/52484322.jpg


Do you have an ETA on dyno results? Can't wait to see the torque curves on the same chart with the superchargers.

[JeepLab]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/52484322.jpg


Do you have an ETA on dyno results? Can't wait to see the torque curves on the same chart with the superchargers.

Jessee is on vacation for a few days. He left direct from here.

He has the dyno location set up and we should have the numbers as soon as I can get him to spin it.

[Yoinkers]

You guys should post the instagram photos here.

it was cool that you instagramed the whole install. I was watching to see if you got hung up anywhere.

[JeepLab]

Ok, So the install went pretty much off without a hitch.

The plan was for us, JL guys, who had never seen a turbo before, install it with the Prodigy guys watching for issues as we went. Our ace, Carolina Pete lead the charge, as usual. Like any true mechanic, it was hard for Wes from Prodigy to watch from the side lines and not get dirty with the rest of us.

Wes was a master mechanic before he was 21. He owns 2 garages in FL. The guys knows cars, and he knows forced induction.

Jessee is one of our guys, who offered to put his jeep on the operating table in the name of science. LOL. Jess was an excellent sport and was just as busy with the install as the other guys.

Here's a shot of Jessee as he opened the Turbo.

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[JeepLab]

More turbo shots.

This was happening the night before the turbo install.

The next morning, we started at 8am and finished about 12 hours later.

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[JeepLab]

Jess drove from MD to NJ with no grill on the jeep.

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Dan and Wes from Prodigy show up around 8am... With an intercooler.

Turns out, this is going to be the first public Stage 2 Installation

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[JeepLab]

Once the pleasantries were exchanged, it was go time.

In these situations, I stay out of the way mostly and try to get the camera in where I can. Pete and Wes start tearing the jeep down. Intake, out. Manifold out.

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Got to get the gaskets out intact.

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[JeepLab]

This is Pete addressing the coolant hoses that run into the firewall. New prodigy hoses will be rerouted to include the turbo.

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[JeepLab]

Cover the cylinders with painters tape to keep dust and anything else out.
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Wes, commanding the troops
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Here is Pete re routing the fuel line with the injectors
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[Gunner]

I bet it's gonna be a rocket ship. Its gonna beat the Maggie and be close to the Ripp. Which is on top will have to be seen. But done right it should have a fat torque curve.

[Snarf77]

I bet it's gonna be a rocket ship. Its gonna beat the Maggie and be close to the Ripp. Which is on top will have to be seen. But done right it should have a fat torque curve.

Jesse's Girl is pretty darn quick. I'm amazed at how problem-free the install and first 200+ miles went by. I drove home right after install, just over 200 miles at highway speed. Even with 37s and 4.88s I have passing power well past 80mph. Nasty!

it sat for a couple days after I got home and parked it. I went out to inspect everything this morning and still leak-free. I figured I'd be losing some fluid somewhere with the new routing of pipes and heat cycling of all of the system components. Definitely pleased with it thus far.

I burped the cooling system, which had air in it after install. This is an iterative process that I think I'll be doing a couple more times. The running temperature did drop a bit after a ride this morning so I think I have it mostly air-free. I'll check in a day or so and repeat the process.

[ljvsnyder]

Looking forward to the numbers on this. Snarf77, what kind of fuel mileage did you get on the way home? And how did it compare to before the install?

[JeepLab]

Here's some silicone spray on the fuel line

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We also modded the bracket for the stock intake to make room for the turbo
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Here's a shot of the scene from outside. All power modded jeeps accounted for. BB with the RIPP, Sweet Pea with the Mag, and Jesse's Girl on the operating table.

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[JeepLab]

Next we tackle the oil pan. The system is drained, and we unbolt the pan, Then we get a chisel in there, and break it away from the underside of the engine.

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Once removed, we needed to clean the pan's surface that touches the engine, and the engine's surface that touches the pan. Get it ready for new RTV

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The step drill comes next to mod the pan to receive the oil back from the turbo. Forced by gravity.

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[Pznivy]

It was cool the way you did this on instagram and facebook.

Is there a sound byte coming?

[JeepLab]

Yes a sound byte is on the way.

[JeepLab]

Here's the first vid!

Overview and SoundByte


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1luf1BDhwU&feature=youtu.be

[JeepLab]

my first review of the turbo driving is next.

[jeepsking]

I am in a process of ordering one. Already had a talk with Dan Mara VP prodigy , hope everything goes well.

There's a new kit with a ball bearing turbo water cooled coming soon.

Thanks Ross and Jeff for the info's.

Hope to get a technical supports internationally once needed

[UselessPickles]

When do we get to hear that blow-off valve? I'm interested to hear how it sounds compared to my stage 1 kit (which has not blow-off valve) when shifting gears.

[JeepLab]

When do we get to hear that blow-off valve? I'm interested to hear how it sounds compared to my stage 1 kit (which has not blow-off valve) when shifting gears.

Its a hard sound to capture, as you have to be shifting on the throttle. Making the noise is easy, its getting a camera to pick it up that's hard.

We'll see if there is a way to get a mic close enough. The sound is plain as day when you drive. Total pressurized air sound. ShPSSSSSSSST!!!

[UselessPickles]

You could try the technique I used in my video: record a video with your phone, holding the phone in your left hand against the steering wheel.

Turn the volume up and listen closely when I shift to 2nd during the acceleration that starts around 1:25: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cyAZSDR_m8#t=1m25s

There's the "ssshhhHHHHHH" sound of the wastegate as I accelerate, then a "PUuuhhh" sound when I lift off the throttle to change gears. I expect the BOV will replace my "PUuuhhh" with a much more distinct "PSSHHhhh".

[JeepLab]

You could try the technique I used in my video: record a video with your phone, holding the phone in your left hand against the steering wheel.

Turn the volume up and listen closely when I shift to 2nd during the acceleration that starts around 1:25: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cyAZSDR_m8#t=1m25s

There's the "ssshhhHHHHHH" sound of the wastegate as I accelerate, then a "PUuuhhh" sound when I lift off the throttle to change gears. I expect the BOV will replace my "PUuuhhh" with a much more distinct "PSSHHhhh".

great sound effects pickles. I understand your meaning completely.

[JeepLab]

More pics!

We are stripping out the old down, and y pipes from Jessee's JK
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Modding the fan shroud to make room in the front of the engine bay... just a tiny trim

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Here we are feeding the new pipes down to the main exhaust.

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[JeepLab]

High Flow Prodigy CAT
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This is the place where the turbo will eventually sit
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Here's Carolina Pete putting it in. Fit is easy and perfect.
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[Snarf77]

There's the "ssshhhHHHHHH" sound of the wastegate as I accelerate, then a "PUuuhhh" sound when I lift off the throttle to change gears. I expect the BOV will replace my "PUuuhhh" with a much more distinct "PSSHHhhh".

I love the sound effects in quotations. I can only describe my acceleration sound as the noise an airplane engine makes when starting up, a higher pitched whir, not quite a whistle, but a whir! The release of throttle for a gear shift definitely has a satisfying "pluhhh--whoooshhh". :)

This is like those commercials where a person is explaining to their mechanic the noise their suspect car is making!

[UselessPickles]

Has a date with the dyno been scheduled yet?

[Snarf77]

Has a date with the dyno been scheduled yet?

Not yet. Still coordinating with local dyno shops to ensure we're a good fit. A couple options have been identified..but no firm date as of yet.

[DukeofJeep]

Looks like Prodigy ran their Jeep, Jesse's Girl should run REAL well!

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[UselessPickles]

I still don't trust Prodigy's stock dyno run. Torque is too high, and peak power is too low and reached at too low of an RPM. The Pentastar has a nearly flat torque curve from 1800 rpm to redline, and all other stock dyno results agree that peak power happens at redline (6400 RPM), and that the peak power number is higher than the peak torque number.

Look at JeepLab's stock dyno results for comparison:

http://jeeplab.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=520&d=1394927642

http://jeeplab.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=496&d=1394666617

JeepLab shows torque at 175 ft-lbs vs Prodigy at 203 ft-lbs. JeeLab shows power at 189 hp @ 6400 rpm vs Prodigy at 170 hp @ ~5000 rpm.

Also, according to their dyno charts, stage 2 turbo (and therefore also stage 1) has a LOSS of torque/power below 2800 RPM. My but dyno does not agree with this. It feels similar to stock around 2000 rpm to me, with noticeable gains before 2500 RPM.

I wonder what causes that sudden drop in torque at 6200 rpm on the stage 2 dyno...


Can't wait to see JeepLab's stage 2 dyno results compared to JeepLab's stock dyno results for a second opinion.

[DukeofJeep]

I haven't studied the dyno graph too well but I have always been of the mindset that as long as you test the before and after on the same dyno and similar conditions that is what really matters and should give you the actual gains. I understand what you are saying but every jeep is different, how corrections are applied to the dyno and such. Regarding the sudden drop at 6200rpm, I thought I heard it mentioned that the speed limiter was hit?

I am very excited to read the full review, with driving impression video!

[UselessPickles]

Variations between jeeps (or dyno calibrations, or local atmospheric conditions) will not cause a major difference in the shape of the torque/power curves. With a stock jeep, peak power should always come at/near redline, and should have a higher value than the peak torque value.

The sudden drop at 6200 I'm referring to is on the stage 2 dyno. The speed limiter is not an issue with the turbo tune installed (stock speed limit is lifted by the tune).

[Yoinkers]

Looks like Prodigy ran their Jeep, Jesse's Girl should run REAL well!

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This chart confuses me. Does the turbo hurt power under 2700 RPM?

Why is the prodigy line lower than stock? Am i reading that right?

[UselessPickles]

This chart confuses me. Does the turbo hurt power under 2700 RPM?

Why is the prodigy line lower than stock? Am i reading that right?

You are reading that right. It doesn't seem right to me, and their entire stock torque/power curve doesn't make sense to me either, as I mentioned here:

http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?146-JeepLab-Prodigy-Install-LIVE&p=2228&viewfull=1#post2228

And here:

http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?33-OMG-Prodigy-TURBO!/page17&p=1260#post1260


The stage 2's sudden dropoff at 6200 rpm also doesn't make sense. The stage 1 turbo makes more tq/power than what is shown in that chart above 6200. I suspect the dyno operator may have prematurely lifted the throttle near redline. I'm waiting for a response from Prodigy about both of these points of confusion.

[JeepLab]

You are reading that right. It doesn't seem right to me, and their entire stock torque/power curve doesn't make sense to me either, as I mentioned here:

http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?146-JeepLab-Prodigy-Install-LIVE&p=2228&viewfull=1#post2228

And here:

http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?33-OMG-Prodigy-TURBO!/page17&p=1260#post1260


The stage 2's sudden dropoff at 6200 rpm also doesn't make sense. The stage 1 turbo makes more tq/power than what is shown in that chart above 6200. I suspect the dyno operator may have prematurely lifted the throttle near redline. I'm waiting for a response from Prodigy about both of these points of confusion.

Snarf is scheduled to roll on the dyno early August.

That will be an independent stage 2 test.

[UselessPickles]

I have confirmed that the dyno operator lifted the throttle as soon as the power curve reached its peak and started falling. They were focusing on getting peak numbers. So the sudden dropoff at 6200 rpm is NOT representative of the power output of stage 2.

No explanation for the loss in tq/power below 2700 rpms yet. Just that it is not expected and that it has not yet been investigated because the focus at the time was on getting peak numbers.


While we're waiting for the "early August" dyno results, can we get some general thoughts on power delivery compared to RIPP and Magnuson? Still waiting to hear that blow-off valve too :)

[Pznivy]

This chart confuses me. Does the turbo hurt power under 2700 RPM?

Why is the prodigy line lower than stock? Am i reading that right?

Lets not gloss over this dyno sheet. How can the turbo make less than stock?

Great that it makes huge power higher in the RPM band, but a power loss sub 3k RPM is troubling.

The SC's are both above stock the whole time.

[JeepLab]

Lets not gloss over this dyno sheet. How can the turbo make less than stock?

Great that it makes huge power higher in the RPM band, but a power loss sub 3k RPM is troubling.

The SC's are both above stock the whole time.

The answer to this is going to come when Jessee rolls his truck on the dyno. We will see if we can get a very early read out, at the lowest possible RPM.

[Snarf77]

The answer to this is going to come when Jessee rolls his truck on the dyno. We will see if we can get a very early read out, at the lowest possible RPM.

Yessir - two dyno charts to compare will make a world of difference and offer some new insights. Date is now scheduled as 8/1, pending any issues. I don't forsee anything so fingers crossed.

[JeepLab]

Yessir - two dyno charts to compare will make a world of difference and offer some new insights. Date is now scheduled as 8/1, pending any issues. I don't forsee anything so fingers crossed.

STOCK TIRES!! And give us a picture of the truck on the dyno! (maybe some video)

Charts will be posted as soon as Jess emails me the files.

[Snarf77]

STOCK TIRES!! And give us a picture of the truck on the dyno! (maybe some video)

Charts will be posted as soon as Jess emails me the files.

Stock Tires going on Thursday night. I'll feel silly driving 30 minutes to the dyno on baby tires after rolling 37s daily.

[UselessPickles]

I'm interested in what happens with the coolant overflow reservoir. Do you have any pics or thoughts to share on that? Is the new location reasonably accessible for checking the coolant level?

[Snarf77]

I'm interested in what happens with the coolant overflow reservoir. Do you have any pics or thoughts to share on that? Is the new location reasonably accessible for checking the coolant level?

The coolant tank is black (knew you'd like that) and it mounts near the front bumper where you can check it easily. My mount was a bit more of a challenge because I have a stubby front bumper and a front skid plate. We mounted it at a slight angle and it is behind my skid for protection. Checking it is not as easy as a stock bumpered JK but it really isn't too bad to remove two bolts, drop it, and inspect.

Skid is off in this picture so it looks more exposed than it is.

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[JeepLab]

FIRST DYNO CHART

This was the best run today. Here are some notes you need to be aware of.

- The stock line in this chart is not Jesse's Girl, Its Sweet Pea's stock dyno line. Sweet Pea and Black Betty were dyno'd years apart (stock) and came out in the exact same spot, so I consider the line a standard.

- Humid summer day

- 4.88 gearing. - This shouldnt alter the line as far as power to the ground vs RPM but JG is geared.

- Stock Tires. All our dyno's to date are on stock 255/75R17 BFG Km1s.

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[JeepLab]

photo bump!

[JeepLab]

photo bump!

Trying to get a bigger image....

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[UselessPickles]

Looks like the dyno operator did the same thing as Prodigy's dyno operator: lift off the throttle and stop recording after peak power, rather than running it all the way to the rev limiter :(

If the torque curve continues the same general downward slope as it does in the 5000 - 6000 rpm range, then it looks like it would be right around 240-250 ft-lbs and around 297-309 hp at 6500 rpm.

Also worth mentioning: that severe dip right at 2500 rpm seems to be an anomaly. The other dyno runs from today show a nice smooth line from 2250 to 2700 rpm, as if that entire valley was completely filled in... and as if the hump in the stock torque curve were chopped off level from 2250 to 2700 rpm. This makes me think that dip at 2500 is probably something that needs to be smoothed out in the tune.

[UselessPickles]

Trying to get a bigger image....


Is it possible to setup your forum software to show the "This image has been resized. Click to view the full image" bar at the top of the image (or similar functionality) that many other forums have?

[JeepLab]

Is it possible to setup your forum software to show the "This image has been resized. Click to view the full image" bar at the top of the image (or similar functionality) that many other forums have?

Ill screw with it.

I can make it a thumbnail you have to click on, and then it might be bigger. This forum software should be the best available. So if there is a way to make it bigger, ill figure it out.

[JeepLab]

Looks like the dyno operator did the same thing as Prodigy's dyno operator: lift off the throttle and stop recording after peak power, rather than running it all the way to the rev limiter :(

If the torque curve continues the same general downward slope as it does in the 5000 - 6000 rpm range, then it looks like it would be right around 240-250 ft-lbs and around 297-309 hp at 6500 rpm.

Also worth mentioning: that severe dip right at 2500 rpm seems to be an anomaly. The other dyno runs from today show a nice smooth line from 2250 to 2700 rpm, as if that entire valley was completely filled in... and as if the hump in the stock torque curve were chopped off level from 2250 to 2700 rpm. This makes me think that dip at 2500 is probably something that needs to be smoothed out in the tune.

The rule in dyno testing is that 6k is the top. Ive been told before that 6k is where to let off. So the guy who did this dyno may have just known what he was doing vs. our others that push the envelope farther.

[JeepLab]

I just altered the images, They are thumbnails now, but when you click them they should be full size.

Good?

[UselessPickles]

I smell BS in that "6000 is the limit for dyno runs" rule. Sounds like an old rule of thumb from the days before electronic rev limiters existed. There's all kinds of engines out there that rev much higher than 6000 rpm. I think my wife's car revs to 8000 or 9000 rpm. You wouldn't stop the dyno at 6000 on that engine. Modern engines are designed to run safely (and often even continuously) anywhere within the rpm range all the way up to the rev limit.

Clickable images for full size seems to work nicely now. It' just missing the message that explains that it can be clicked for full size.

[JeepLab]

I smell BS in that "6000 is the limit for dyno runs" rule. Sounds like an old rule of thumb from the days before electronic rev limiters existed. There's all kinds of engines out there that rev much higher than 6000 rpm. I think my wife's car revs to 8000 or 9000 rpm. You wouldn't stop the dyno at 6000 on that engine. Modern engines are designed to run safely (and often even continuously) anywhere within the rpm range all the way up to the rev limit.

Clickable images for full size seems to work nicely now. It' just missing the message that explains that it can be clicked for full size.

Pickles calls shenanigans!! Lol!

I had asked Ripp and Mag both gave me a point to hit. I remember we went past it on our Dyno. I didn't mean it as an overall Dyno rule. I remember being impressed that the Dyno guy got it up so high.

You do see the prodigy line 'crest'. It's made all the power it's gong to make by the time the line stops.

[UselessPickles]

When I dyno'd my motorcycle, I was on the motorcycle operating the throttle. The dyno operator pushed the button to start when I said "go", then pushed the button to stop recording when he heard the rev limiter kick in (just over 9000 rpm). I did about 12 dyno runs that day. My engine didn't explode, nor did my balls fall off.

True story.

[Snarf77]

Pickles was correct that the dip in this run was an anomaly that was only experienced in this particular run.

I plan to get my exhaust done - AFE high-tuck or similar and re-run her on the dyno to see if we have any improvement.

[UselessPickles]

During the dyno pulls, did they have high-power fans/blowers blowing through the intercooler to simulate airflow at speed on the road?

[Snarf77]

During the dyno pulls, did they have high-power fans/blowers blowing through the intercooler to simulate airflow at speed on the road?

They had a large fan running, but I felt it was too low to the ground to have a large effect on the intercooler. I felt the airflow from such a low direction would be blocked a good bit by the winch and winch cover. They also stated that the relatively humid and warm weather didn't help me out.

The shop called their dyno "the heartbreaker" because they feel it is extremely accurate/conservative compared to other local shops and it was calibrated within the last 3 months.

[UselessPickles]

Sounds like we might need a local owner of a stock Wrangler to volunteer to create a stock baseline dyno run at that same shop for a valid comparison.

[JeepLab]

Sounds like we might need a local owner of a stock Wrangler to volunteer to create a stock baseline dyno run at that same shop for a valid comparison.

I have 3 stock dyno runs. All at different times of year, different jeeps. different dynos.

The lines are all very close.

I've never done a dyno on any mod where the manufacturer didn't think it should have made more power.

Also the number i posted was SAE. Uncorrected would be higher.

[UselessPickles]

If you are confident in the validity of the results, then let's see some stock vs RIPP vs Magnuson vs Prodigy charts!

[Snarf77]

If only dyno runs were free we'd have everyone get on a dyno to get more and more data! My runs took from 8:45 am until almost 11am. It is a time and financial commitment.

But seriously- I'm with Ross noting that stock performance is fairly well known. Sure..it may be a bit different on one dyno vs. another but the data has been corrected. I also used the same dyno brand to keep it as close to an apples-to-apples comparison.

I will run Jesse's girl again after a new tune is released and maybe after I get a more free-flowing exhaust. From what I've read and some advice I've received; it should help the entire charging process.

[JeepLab]

If you are confident in the validity of the results, then let's see some stock vs RIPP vs Magnuson vs Prodigy charts!

I thought you'd never ask. Coming right up.

[JeepLab]

I have the chart prepped, Im just trying to put a JL logo on it, so I dont want to kill myself when I see it pop up elsewhere.

Ill have it up tomorrow.

[NOLAjeeper]

As soon as prodigy ships my stage 2 upgrade and I receive it in the mail. I'll be getting it installed and have some pre and post stage 2 dyno runs. I'll do my best to video document the dyno runs. And share it with the JL community. I hope Dan can ship it out this week.

[JeepLab]

As soon as prodigy ships my stage 2 upgrade and I receive it in the mail. I'll be getting it installed and have some pre and post stage 2 dyno runs. I'll do my best to video document the dyno runs. And share it with the JL community. I hope Dan can ship it out this week.

That would be AWSOME. A cross reference would be great.

Pickles, what do you say to dynoing your rig to give a stage 1 number?

[boosted1]

Good morning. I am Wes from Prodigy Performance. I am reading these forum posts and I am very concerned regarding the translations here. Our dyno numbers are not altered in any way. Why is there not a graph from the same vehicle, on the same dyno before and after. Also the SC guys should have the same. Then all three should be compared with the same correction factors on the same dyno etc. This should be the only way to make a comparison. Dyno runs with anomalies should be disregarded and run again. They certainly should not get posted. This only leads to misconceptions regarding the products.

The baseline should be set and there must be consistency to even begin to make a valid comparison. Dyno results without SAE correction are worthless. Choosing the highest manipulated number is a no no. We have never manipulated dyno numbers and we currently hold all power records for the JK Wrangler.

2007-11 350+ RWHP and over 400lbft of torque @ 12psi
2012- present 360RWHP and 370+lbft of torque @ 9psi

I would like to answer any questions you guys may have. Let me know!

[Rexx19]

Does Jesse's Girl's 4.88 Gearing shorten the power band?

[UselessPickles]

Then all three should be compared with the same correction factors on the same dyno

Ross: The RIPP (Black Betty) and Magnuson (Sweat Pea) were both run on the same dyno, weren't they? Any chance we could get Jesse's Girl on that same dyno?



I would like to answer any questions you guys may have. Let me know!

Where is the "Huge low end power" that your brochure boasts?

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[JeepLab]

Ross: The RIPP (Black Betty) and Magnuson (Sweat Pea) were both run on the same dyno, weren't they? Any chance we could get Jesse's Girl on that same dyno?

Betty's stock dyno is at one location, Sweet pea is at another. They are almost 2 years apart.

Their "After" dynos were done at their respective locations, and then again at the same time on the same day at the final dyno location. (most recent)

Im trying to arrange to have a stock Pentastar JK dyno'd at the same location that JG just did the dyno at.

[UselessPickles]

Im trying to arrange to have a stock Pentastar JK dyno'd at the same location that JG just did the dyno at.

If a stock Jeep on that dyno produces results nearly identical to your existing stock results, then we know that stage 2 dyno results from that same dyno are reasonably comparable to the supercharger results you have.

If the stock results there are significantly different, then you really need to put Jesse's Girl on the same dyno as your most recent RIPP vs Magnuson dyno runs for a valid comparison to the superchargers.



Does Jesse's Girl's 4.88 Gearing shorten the power band?

Shorter gearing does reduce dyno results when an acceleration "sweep" through the rpm range is used to record the results. How much it reduces the results depends on how fast the acceleration sweep is, the difference in gearing, and the amount of rotational inertia in the entire drivetrain prior to the axle. I would NOT expect the 4.88 gears to account for a majority of the discrepancy between Prodigy's numbers and JeepLab's numbers.

I suspect a difference in dyno type/calibration is the main culprit. For example, if the dyno has a smaller/lighter drum than the dynos used for other results, then the acceleration sweep would go faster. The faster the sweep, the more torque is lost to accelerating the internal engine components, transmission parts, driveshafts, etc, and the less torque makes it to the dyno drum.

Can we get the specs of the dyno that Jesse's Girl was run on, then maybe Wes can provide some insight on how that dyno compares to the dyno that Prodigy uses?



Pickles, what do you say to dynoing your rig to give a stage 1 number?

I'm still in debt to the household savings account (and will be for months), so I don't think I'll be going on a dyno. NOLA will be giving us both a stage 1 and stage 2 dyno chart, so he's at least giving us a valid comparison between 2 things. If I ran on a dyno, I would just have stage 1 results with nothing to compare to.

BTW, NOLA, make sure you get the raw dyno run files from your dyno operator (they should be able to email the files to you). Those files are MUCH more useful than a printout of the dyno chart!

[boosted1]

The difference between the dyno charts is the correction factors that were used is different. The SC vehicles received no correction factor in order to deliver the highest number. Strap all the vehicles on the same dyno, on the same day and the numbers will speak for themselves. We designed our turbo system to cruise in vacuum to avoid surging or excessive acceleration at highway speeds. The Jeep comes alive and makes more HP and torque 3,000 rpms sooner than the Jeep was able to do using the entire rpm. It now delivers over 100% more power. Especially in the midrange, where Jeeps need it the most contrary to most beliefs.

[UselessPickles]

We designed our turbo system to cruise in vacuum to avoid surging or excessive acceleration at highway speeds.

So this is one of the reasons you specced out the turbo build boost above typical cruising RPMs?

It makes sense now that I think about it. If the turbo was specced to build boost at low RPMs, then you would need a good electronic boost controller (more expense, complexity and tuning effort) to avoid boost during freeway cruising, plus there's the issue of extra strain on the engine with boost at low RPM. The Wrangler is probably especially difficult in this area because it's not very aerodynamic and requires quite a bit more power than typical cars. More power required = more engine load = more exhaust flow to spool up the turbo, compared to typical cars.

Just for comparison, the Subaru Impreza WRX is just about exactly twice as aerodynamic as the Wrangler. That means it requires almost twice as much power to keep the Wrangler cruising on the freeway compared to the WRX.



Especially in the midrange, where Jeeps need it the most contrary to most beliefs.

For the record (and I've discussed this before elsewhere on forums), I'm of the opinion that the *need* for more low-end torque is over-rated in the Jeep community. Use gearing (transmission AND 4LO if necessary) to your advantage while off-road to keep the engine in the mid-range for more power available on demand, and a smoother/happier engine. While on-road, downshift when you need to accelerate quickly so that you can use the power of higher RPMs. People that complain about the Wrangler being too sluggish while also refusing to exceed 3000 rpms have no valid complaint.

I was never expecting the turbo to produce big low RPM gains, and I don't demand big low RPM gains. I was actually surprised when I saw "HUGE LOW END POWER" on the brochure.

It sounds to me like there was never any intent to create "HUGE LOW END POWER" with this turbo kit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe the claim on the brochure was just a miscommunication between engineering and marketing?

I see 2 separate issues that need explanation:

1) Why does the brochure promise "HUGE LOW END POWER"? Based on the information available, it appears that it must be either a mistake in marketing, or false advertisement. If the turbo is not designed for big low RPM gains, then don't advertise "HUGE LOW END POWER". Advertise the strengths and benefits of the turbo. I think that section of the brochure could be easily changed to be 100% truthful by just changing the heading to "HUGE MID-RANGE POWER" (well, I would technically classify it as "huge upper-mid-range power"). The upper-mid-range is where you have a big advantage over the superchargers (more "usable" power for quick acceleration, etc).

2) Why is there a LOSS of low-end power below 2700 RPMs (according to your publicly-released dyno chart). While I don't think the Wrangler needs MORE low-end power, I also think that it is unacceptable to REDUCE low-end power. We need all the low-end power that we already have in stock form. I still think that there is *something* incorrect about your stock dyno results that is causing an incorrect (to your DISadvantage!) comparison between stock and turbo in the official Prodigy marketing material (ignoring specific numbers, the overall shape of the torque/power curves just does not at all match up with other stock dyno results; power should not peak below 6400 rpms). I really think that if you put another stock Wrangler on the dyno with its speed limiter disabled via an InTune, that you would get results that make more sense AND show an even larger increase in torque with the turbo.

[JeepLab]

The difference between the dyno charts is the correction factors that were used is different. The SC vehicles received no correction factor in order to deliver the highest number. Strap all the vehicles on the same dyno, on the same day and the numbers will speak for themselves. We designed our turbo system to cruise in vacuum to avoid surging or excessive acceleration at highway speeds. The Jeep comes alive and makes more HP and torque 3,000 rpms sooner than the Jeep was able to do using the entire rpm. It now delivers over 100% more power. Especially in the midrange, where Jeeps need it the most contrary to most beliefs.

Stating that we are using different correction factors is stating that we are using UNCORRECTED for one and SAE for the other, I think we are using SAE for all and Im sure Ive posted both charts UNCORRECTED and SAE for pretty much all the dynos. Thats a software thing, not a specific dyno thing. The chart I posted was SAE as Prodigy's chart is SAE. I can change it to UNCORRECTED if you want to show the difference.

Is the Dyno that Jesse ended up on broken? If the stock number comes out far off our other 9 stock dyno charts, then we'd have to put JG on a new dyno or bring her back to NJ and run her on the same dyno as the SCs.

We are comparing stock vs turbo, and will get a stock jeep on the same dyno to see the difference between that chart and the stock dyno charts used earlier in this thread.

[UselessPickles]

This may sound too silly to be possible... but I noticed that the JeepLab stage 2 results have very similar peak numbers to Prodigy's stage 1 results. Is there any chance that you have the wrong wastegate spring, and are only getting about 7psi boost instead of about 9psi? A data log of full throttle in 2nd gear should be easy enough to confirm you're getting stage 2 boost levels.


Also, when do we get to hear about the rest of the install? You left off here, 4 pages ago: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?146-JeepLab-Prodigy-Install-LIVE&p=2200&viewfull=1#post2200

[Snarf77]

This may sound too silly to be possible... but I noticed that the JeepLab stage 2 results have very similar peak numbers to Prodigy's stage 1 results. Is there any chance that you have the wrong wastegate spring, and are only getting about 7psi boost instead of about 9psi? A data log of full throttle in 2nd gear should be easy enough to confirm you're getting stage 2 boost levels.



I personally changed the wastegate spring; non-issue. I will do a data log of a 2nd gear full acceleration and send it your way nonetheless.

[NOLAjeeper]

Alright Folks! Just received the stage 2 kit today!! Bad news though the shop cant get me in until late next week, and maybe not even then..At the latest, week after next..(the week of the 18th). I will be out of town all week next week and ill be dropping off the jeep at the shop Monday (11th). Hopefully they can dyno stage 1, install stage 2, dyno again while im out of town and document the dyno and install. At the very least if they cant do a video, ill have the dyno passes pre stage 2 and post. Keep you guys updated.

[JeepLab]

Alright Folks! Just received the stage 2 kit today!! Bad news though the shop cant get me in until late next week, and maybe not even then..At the latest, week after next..(the week of the 18th). I will be out of town all week next week and ill be dropping off the jeep at the shop Monday (11th). Hopefully they can dyno stage 1, install stage 2, dyno again while im out of town and document the dyno and install. At the very least if they cant do a video, ill have the dyno passes pre stage 2 and post. Keep you guys updated.

see if its a dynojet and weather or not we can get a file.

Id like to check the conditions vs the chart line to get to the bottom of weather or not Jesse's dyno is "off".

[NOLAjeeper]

I personally changed the wastegate spring; non-issue. I will do a data log of a 2nd gear full acceleration and send it your way nonetheless.

Did you have the 7Psi spring that came with the kit? what did you replace it with? 10Psi? My kit came with a 7Psi spring.. Stage 2 is suppose to be running 9 Psi right?..

[Snarf77]

Did you have the 7Psi spring that came with the kit? what did you replace it with? 10Psi? My kit came with a 7Psi spring.. Stage 2 is suppose to be running 9 Psi right?..

The spring was in a small bag that came with the stage II setup. Nothing was on the spring to indicate the PSI that it represented. I just followed the instructions and replaced it. I believe if someone goes directly to a State II from stock - the correct spring may be pre-installed. On my setup and yours, the parts required slight modification (i.e. spring).

[NOLAjeeper]

The spring was in a small bag that came with the stage II setup. Nothing was on the spring to indicate the PSI that it represented. I just followed the instructions and replaced it. I believe if someone goes directly to a State II from stock - the correct spring may be pre-installed. On my setup and yours, the parts required slight modification (i.e. spring).

Yeah i have the lil bag with the spring inside it.. It is tagged with a "7psi" label..

[NOLAjeeper]

Did you have the 7Psi spring that came with the kit? what did you replace it with? 10Psi? My kit came with a 7Psi spring.. Stage 2 is suppose to be running 9 Psi right?..


The spring was in a small bag that came with the stage II setup. Nothing was on the spring to indicate the PSI that it represented. I just followed the instructions and replaced it. I believe if someone goes directly to a State II from stock - the correct spring may be pre-installed. On my setup and yours, the parts required slight modification (i.e. spring).


Yeah i have the lil bag with the spring inside it.. It is tagged with a "7psi" label..

Disregard everything i wrote about the 7Psi label on the spring. I read something different and thought it was the Wastegate spring bag. You are correct in that the spring does not indicate the PSI it represents. Sorry for the misinformation and confusion.

[UselessPickles]

I think the 4.88 gears on Jesse's Girl could have significantly affected the dyno results, especially because it was run with stock 32" tires, and because of the nature of how a turbo works.

The overall gear ratio of 4th gear on that setup is close to 3rd gear with 3.73 gears, and is like something between 2nd and 3rd gear with 3.21 gears. This means that Jesse's Girl did not have as much load on the engine when run on the dyno as compared to Prodigy's dyno runs. This would lead to lower dyno numbers for 2 reasons:

1) The already-discussed issue of quicker acceleration on the dyno leading to lower dyno numbers because more torque is lost to accelerating the drive train more quickly.
2) Less load on the engine and quicker acceleration causes the turbo to spool up more slowly with respect to engine speed, so boost increases "later" in the rpm range, resulting in a lower peak torque that occurs higher up in the rpm range.

Additionally, common dyno practice is to use the transmission gear that is closest to a 1:1 ratio. 5th gear is a 1:1 ratio on the Wrangler, so it's possible that Prodigy's results are from a 5th gear dyno pull, meaning that Prodigy's dyno pull had even that much more load on the engine for slower acceleration, allowing the turbo to spool up at lower rpms, and giving up less torque to accelerating the drive train.

To get as close to Prodigy's conditions as possible, we need to find out what transmission gear they used for the dyno pull, then run Jesse's Girl one gear higher with stock tires. Even at one gear higher, Jesse's Girl will still be geared overall a little shorter (numerically higher), plus the driveshaft will be accelerating more quickly than the stock jeep (using up some of the torque), so I would still expect the numbers to be a bit lower than Prodigy's results.

[jeepsking]

Jeff: to be honest I don't believe in dynos what I believe is personal experience so my question is what do you feel about the gain and did u got what expected from the kit. Same questions to others (impression). I already ordered the kit (still waiting) but once I installed I will try to compare it with other cars plus other upgraded JK if possible. Gears affect how quick is your car , but in major view it dosent affect the overall performance.

[UselessPickles]

My personal experience is all subjective, so it's not a valid basis for comparison. Butt dynos are much less trustworthy than real dynos. Starting around 3000 rpm, it goes fast, makes cool noises, and makes me smile. How fast is fast? Faster than stock is all I can tell you. Is it faster than RIPP or Magnuson? I have no idea. I haven't even seen one of their kits in person. Is it fast enough to make you smile? I wouldn't know.

That's why we use tools (dynos) to measure objective representations of performance (torque/power curves). If the tools are standardized and used consistently, then you get consistent and comparable results. We have seen inconsistent results at this point and are trying to figure out the cause inconsistency so it can be corrected to ensure that we have results that are consistent and comparable to other dyno results (stock, RIPP and Magnuson).

[jeepsking]

Hope you get a chance to compare with others legally in a track or down hills.

[JeepLab]

Jeff: to be honest I don't believe in dynos what I believe is personal experience so my question is what do you feel about the gain and did u got what expected from the kit. Same questions to others (impression). I already ordered the kit (still waiting) but once I installed I will try to compare it with other cars plus other upgraded JK if possible. Gears affect how quick is your car , but in major view it dosent affect the overall performance.

My butt dyno says Jesse's Girl is a rocket. But the 4.88s play into that. Did she feel fast? Yes. Was I going fast?... not as fast as it felt. I was merging onto a highway and I had the throttle nailed. It felt like I was on a roller coaster. But I was not blowing away traffic. Thats because the gearing was holding the overall speed back. (I think).

So is she fast? Yes, very fast.

Would she be faster with 4.10s? If we are talking about highway speeds, then yes. But the acceleration would suffer, and she might not feel as fast.

[JeepLab]

I think the 4.88 gears on Jesse's Girl could have significantly affected the dyno results, especially because it was run with stock 32" tires, and because of the nature of how a turbo works.

The overall gear ratio of 4th gear on that setup is close to 3rd gear with 3.73 gears, and is like something between 2nd and 3rd gear with 3.21 gears. This means that Jesse's Girl did not have as much load on the engine when run on the dyno as compared to Prodigy's dyno runs. This would lead to lower dyno numbers for 2 reasons:

1) The already-discussed issue of quicker acceleration on the dyno leading to lower dyno numbers because more torque is lost to accelerating the drive train more quickly.
2) Less load on the engine and quicker acceleration causes the turbo to spool up more slowly with respect to engine speed, so boost increases "later" in the rpm range, resulting in a lower peak torque that occurs higher up in the rpm range.

Additionally, common dyno practice is to use the transmission gear that is closest to a 1:1 ratio. 5th gear is a 1:1 ratio on the Wrangler, so it's possible that Prodigy's results are from a 5th gear dyno pull, meaning that Prodigy's dyno pull had even that much more load on the engine for slower acceleration, allowing the turbo to spool up at lower rpms, and giving up less torque to accelerating the drive train.

To get as close to Prodigy's conditions as possible, we need to find out what transmission gear they used for the dyno pull, then run Jesse's Girl one gear higher with stock tires. Even at one gear higher, Jesse's Girl will still be geared overall a little shorter (numerically higher), plus the driveshaft will be accelerating more quickly than the stock jeep (using up some of the torque), so I would still expect the numbers to be a bit lower than Prodigy's results.

I have never heard of a 5th gear dyno.

Ive also been told by separate people that the gearing doesnt matter with a tumbler style dyno machine.

Im not an expert, these points, I have heard from different people. The power comes thru the drive train, and the rear wheels roll the tumbler. The tumbler dosent know what the gearing is, and im not sure the number of teeth in the ring alters the power from the driveshaft thru the wheels.

Maybe I can get someone from dynojet to tell us exactly.

[UselessPickles]

Ive also been told by separate people that the gearing doesnt matter with a tumbler style dyno machine.

The math might work out so that it doesn't really matter for N/A or supercharged engines, where there is a direct relationship between engine speed and torque output. But we're talking about a turbocharged engine here. It takes engine load and time to spool up a turbo. Just compare a 3rd and 4th gear run from Jesse's girl and you'll see how much of a difference the overall gear ratio can make.

[boosted1]

If you are confident in the validity of the results, then let's see some stock vs RIPP vs Magnuson vs Prodigy charts!

This should be the story. Keep in mind all the results should be on the same dyno same configuration, same correction factor etc...
My thoughts are as follows.

1. Magnuson by design will deliver the highest off idle TQ gain
2. Magnuson will also have the lowest overall performance gain
3. Magnuson power will decline the longer it is ran due to heat soak and highest IAT

4. Ripp by design will have a linear power curve and will make peak HP only at max RPM
5. Ripp will make good power as the supercharger is large enough to move a high volume of air

7. Prodigy by design will deliver more power than ANY forced induction system on the market
8. Prodigy will make crazy power in the midrange where the Wrangler needs it the most Contrary to most dialogue
9. Prodigy will deliver sea level performance at higher elevation due to the use of a wastegate
10. Prodigy system can be upgraded giving it a win for HP per dollar

[boosted1]

957

Stage 1 is shipped with Red spring .4 bar
Stage 2 is White .5 bar

Read the bottom right of the image. I personally prefer the White and Green combination for Maximum fun.;)

[Yoinkers]

This should be the story. Keep in mind all the results should be on the same dyno same configuration, same correction factor etc...
My thoughts are as follows.

1. Magnuson by design will deliver the highest off idle HP gain
2. Magnuson will also have the lowest overall performance gain
3. Magnuson power will decline the longer it is ran due to heat soak and highest IAT

4. Ripp by design will have a linear power curve and will make peak HP only at max RPM
5. Ripp will make good power as the supercharger is large enough to move a high volume of air

7. Prodigy by design will deliver more power than ANY forced induction system on the market
8. Prodigy will make crazy power in the midrange where the Wrangler needs it the most Contrary to most dialogue
9. Prodigy will deliver sea level performance at higher elevation due to the use of a wastegate
10. Prodigy system can be upgraded giving it a win for HP per dollar

Wes, why does your dyno chart show a loss of power, I understand the goal of midrange power, but I cannot understand why the prodigy power line dips under the stock line.

Also, can you give your position on axle gearing with dynos?

What tranny gear was prodigy's dyno done in?

[boosted1]

Wes, why does your dyno chart show a loss of power, I understand the goal of midrange power, but I cannot understand why the prodigy power line dips under the stock line.


Also, can you give your position on axle gearing with dynos?


What tranny gear was prodigy's dyno done in?


When the vehicle is turbocharged, load is a huge factor. Graphing the lower RPM band is the most difficult. We ran the vehicle in 4th gear and slowed to the lowest point we could maintain a wide open throttle pull. So picture yourself in 4th gear and slowing down to like 2k and then give it wide open throttle. Not really ideal...
We use the dyno as a tuning device to hold the vehicle stationary. We then make adjustments while recording data from the vehicle and the dyno. This helps determine what adjustments are needed next. When its all done the street is where the fine tuning comes into play.

We used 4th gear for our pulls and also tested with 3rd gear. They were close enough where it didn't matter.

As for axle gearing on dynos, I personally have not seen this as a real issue. When I am taking the time to dyno a car I would start with a baseline, make the modification and retest to see the results of the modifications. If you are looking to compare something then the variables need to remain the same all the way down to how they are tested. What gear they are driven in, tire size, weather etc..

Gear ratio just changes how quickly the engine pulls through the RPM band. A gear change can deliver faster acceleration but will also get less fuel economy as it cruises at a higher rpm on the hwy. Turbochargers like load and I find ratios closer to stock work best. Over gearing may deliver adverse affects like poor fuel economy and surging on the highway.

Typically over gearing is done just to make up for the overall lack of power. If the Jeep performed great stock and you changed the tire size why wouldn't you just install the gear that puts you closest to stock? Choosing a different gear than this could give improved acceleration but would also change the rpm at cruise. The reason the performance went away is due to the weight of the tire and wheel combination. To get the performance back you will need more power.

[Snarf77]

Gear ratio just changes how quickly the engine pulls through the RPM band....

Typically over gearing is done just to make up for the overall lack of power. Choosing a different gear than this could give improved acceleration but would also change the rpm at cruise. The reason the performance went away is due to the weight of the tire and wheel combination. To get the performance back you will need more power.

Moving through the RPM band faster has an effect on power at the wheels; the significance of the loss is to be debated and could be a non-issue with regards to this level of power.

Higher numerical gear ratios are also used to increase crawl ratio off-road. That was one of my goals, especially with my manual trans. The higher the rpms when crawling..the smaller the the movements for a given throttle input. This also helps me into that midrange power band where my turbo shines.

Luckily I've had no highway surging of any kind; the highway driveability has been massively improved over stock.

Do you envision separate tunes for Stage 1, Stage 2, and eventually Stage 3 systems?

[UselessPickles]

When the vehicle is turbocharged, load is a huge factor.


We used 4th gear for our pulls and also tested with 3rd gear. They were close enough where it didn't matter.

These two statements seem contradictory to me, when talking about a dyno pulls on a simple inertia dyno. Jesse's Girl definitely produced very different results in 3rd gear vs 4th gear.

Wes - are you using one of the much nicer dynos that can dynamically change its load to maintain a controlled/constant rate of acceleration during your dyno pulls? If yes, then we'll never reproduce those results on a simple inertia dyno.

[boosted1]

I think i would have to make the comparison when i have the Jeep on the dyno. Doesn't sound possible to me. As i remember the pulls in 3rd were relatively the same in 3rd vs 4th. Certainly nothing that I recall that would make me choose one over the other. I think 3rd may be a better choice to see the dip in power that is in question.

DynoJet with WinPep 7

My boys at Power by the Hour are the best in the country. Check them out. Long time friends. http://www.pbhperformance.com

[JeepLab]

to talk to this point of 3rd vs. 4th gear, I cannot tell the difference when looking at the charts weather a dyno pull is 3rd gear or 4th gear unless you change the charts parameters to actual speed MPH, and not engine speed RPM.

Otherwise, you could end up laying 3rd gear runs over 4th gear runs and not know that its not apples to apples, in the RPM band, it looks like apple to apples.

[UselessPickles]

Ross - I think you are talking about your 3rd and 4th gear stock dyno runs. I'm talking about Jessee's 3rd and 4th gear turbo dyno runs. The gear made a pretty big difference with the turbo. Want me to post a chart comparing them?

[Snarf77]

Ross - I think you are talking about your 3rd and 4th gear stock dyno runs. I'm talking about Jessee's 3rd and 4th gear turbo dyno runs. The gear made a pretty big difference with the turbo. Want me to post a chart comparing them?

3rd gear definitely showed lower peak number than 4th. This was 100% expected by the shop rolling the dyno and by me. Again - its the idea that a dyno is most accurate where a 1:1 ratio is achieved. I didn't do the math to figure out what gear had my 1:1, I just assumed I should use 4th as was done previously.

My higher axle gearing would have skewed my numbers down vice the factory 4.10s in a given gear. The higher gearing changes the engine's rate of acceleration as a matter of fact. Faster engine acceleration equals lower bhp. Again - the effect of this is different for every dyno manufacturer and the way it does its math.

I'm feeling another dyno run is in my future.

[UselessPickles]

Ok, here it is. Jessee's torque curve in both 3rd (blue) and 4th (red) gear:

976

If the pattern continues, I bet a 5th gear pull (which due to 4.88 gears, would be similar to a 4th gear pull on stock gears/tires) would result in an even earlier and higher torque peak that has a shape more like Prodigy's results.

[NOLAjeeper]

If i can get Prodigy to email me the install manual for the stage 2 upgrade, i can get my dyo passes in.. It was supposed to be today but the shop wouldnt begin without the Manufactures instruction manual. So i had to reschedule for tomorrow, anticipating ill get my hands on the install manual. I have an automatic with 5.13 37" mud grapplers. They will be doing dyno before the install and after the install. Again this is whether or not ill get the install instructions.

[JeepLab]

Ok, here it is. Jessee's torque curve in both 3rd (blue) and 4th (red) gear:

976

If the pattern continues, I bet a 5th gear pull (which due to 4.88 gears, would be similar to a 4th gear pull on stock gears/tires) would result in an even earlier and higher torque peak that has a shape more like Prodigy's results.

I had a conversation with wes today at length. A 5th gear dyno run would bring the truck to like 150 mph. Its out of the question.

4th gear is the closest to 1 to 1 and the axle gear ratio is a non factor.

Its not going to make 40 more hp if you run it in 5th.

[JeepLab]

If i can get Prodigy to email me the install manual for the stage 2 upgrade, i can get my dyo passes in.. It was supposed to be today but the shop wouldnt begin without the Manufactures instruction manual. So i had to reschedule for tomorrow, anticipating ill get my hands on the install manual. I have an automatic with 5.13 37" mud grapplers. They will be doing dyno before the install and after the install. Again this is whether or not ill get the install instructions.

I just sent a message. Trying to nip this missing manual thing.

[Snarf77]

A 5th gear dyno run would bring the truck to like 150 mph. Its out of the question.

Not gonna happen!

[Snarf77]

If i can get Prodigy to email me the install manual for the stage 2 upgrade, i can get my dyo passes in.. It was supposed to be today but the shop wouldnt begin without the Manufactures instruction manual. So i had to reschedule for tomorrow, anticipating ill get my hands on the install manual. I have an automatic with 5.13 37" mud grapplers. They will be doing dyno before the install and after the install. Again this is whether or not ill get the install instructions.

This will be good info. I"m really looking forward to it.

[UselessPickles]

I had a conversation with wes today at length. A 5th gear dyno run would bring the truck to like 150 mph. Its out of the question.

4th gear is the closest to 1 to 1 and the axle gear ratio is a non factor.

Corrections:
5th gear is exactly a 1:1 ratio on the manual transmission.
5th gear with stock tires and 4.88 gears (the way Jessee put his jeep on the dyno) would max out at 122 mph at 6500 rpm.
5th gear with his 37 inch tires and 4.88 gears would max out at 141 mph.

For comparison:
4th gear with stock tires and 3.73 gears would max out at 128 mph.
4th gear with stock tires and 3.21 gears would max out at 148 mph.

Therefore:
Jessee's jeep with stock tires in 5th gear is similar to a stock jeep with 3.73 gears in 4th gear.
Jessee's jeep with his 37" tires in 5th gear is similar to a stock jeep with 3.21 gears in 4th gear.


Information calculated using: http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html
Using 30.75" as the actual mounted diameter of stock tires and 35.5" as the actual mounted diameter of the 37" tires.

[UselessPickles]

the axle gear ratio is a non factor

As Jessee's dyno results show, overall gear ratio does matter on that dyno, the way the dyno run was performed. The results are very different between 3rd and 4th gear. There is no way you can look at those results and conclude that the gear ratio is a non factor.

A difference in axle ratio causes a difference in overall gear ratio essentially just the same way a different transmission gear causes a difference in overal gear ratio. If axle ratio was a non factor, then transmission ratio would also be a non factor. If the overall gear ratio matters, then the entire combination of transmission gear, axle ratio, and tire size all matter.

[JeepLab]

As Jessee's dyno results show, overall gear ratio does matter on that dyno, the way the dyno run was performed. The results are very different between 3rd and 4th gear. There is no way you can look at those results and conclude that the gear ratio is a non factor.

A difference in axle ratio causes a difference in overall gear ratio essentially just the same way a different transmission gear causes a difference in overal gear ratio. If axle ratio was a non factor, then transmission ratio would also be a non factor. If the overall gear ratio matters, then the entire combination of transmission gear, axle ratio, and tire size all matter.

I said Axle Gear is a non factor. Not transmission gear. The dyno connects to the cpu in the dash and uses the RPM of the engine to correct for the speed of the tumbler

Stock jeeps get dyno'd in 3rd gear because the stock tune hits the speed limiter in 4th.

Modded Jeeps get dyno'd in 4th, as it is closest to 1 to 1 ratio. I have never heard anywere of a jeep getting dyno'd in 5th gear.

Ive been at this a while, and have interviewed and worked with every power mod manufacturer. They all say the same thing.

Dynojet both drum speed and engine speed are measured and used to take out any effects of gear torque multiplication.

[JeepLab]

Ive been searching for about 40 min now, and cannot find a clear final answer about the inner working of the dynojet. Ive read arguments from both sides of this in other forums and there is no clear post that would settle this.

I will call dynojet tomorow and make them email me a response I can post.

[UselessPickles]

I didn't misquote you (that wan't a quote where I said "overall gear ratio"). I was trying to bring attention to the fact that it is the overall gear ratio that caused the difference in Jessees results. Transmission ratio and axle ratio both contribute to overall gear ratio.

It doesn't matter whether the difference in gear ratio is in the transmission or in the axle. A difference in gear ratio is a difference in gear ratio. If one matters, then the other matters. There's no way around it. The overall gear ratio is the transmission gear ratio multiplied by the axle gear ratio. One is not not inherently more significant than the other just because of its physical location. If you agree that transmission ratio is a factor, then you are also agreeing that axle ratio is a factor.

4th gear is a 1.25:1 ratio.
5th gear is a 1:1 ratio.

How is 4th gear "closest to 1 to 1 ratio" if 5th gear is EXACTLY 1 to 1?

The difference between 4th and 5th gear is 25%. The difference between 3.21 axle and 4.88 axle is 52%. The difference between 3.73 axle and 4.88 axle is 30%. The difference between Jessee's axle ratio and stock axle ratios is MORE significant than the difference between 4th and 5th gear!

AGAIN: This is is a special situation to turbos only, because it's related to the amount of load on the engine and the duration of the dyno pull allowing the turbo to spool up. This is not about the typical factor of drivetrain rotational inertia. I agree that the axle ratio (and transmission gear) would have minimal effect on a naturally aspirated or supercharged engine, because they do not depend on engine load to produce power.

The turbo needs engine load and time to spool up. The amount of load on the engine on a simple inertia dyno is primarily directly proportional to the overall gear ratio from the engine to the dyno drum (including transmission gear ratio, axle gear ratio, AND tire size). It's the overall ratio between engine speed and "road speed" that matters here.

This also all only matters on an acceleration sweep dyno pull (which is the only type that an inertia dyno can perform). If we could get steady state results on a load bearing dyno, then we wouldn't have to worry about any of this (tire size/weight, gear ratios, etc).

We already have a test that shows that gear ratio matters hugely on the dyno that Jessee used. His dyno results clearly fit the my explanation of the turbo spooling up more slowly with respect to engine speed when using gearing that creates less load on the engine.

All the people that have all told you that axle ratio doesn't matter... was it clearly being discussed in the context of a turbocharged vehicle on an inertia dyno (or sweep test on a load dyno)? it's not a matter of either me being right or them being right. Context is key. Their statements are true in many contexts. Their statements are false in this specific context of a turbocharged vehicle on an inertia dyno (or in a sweep test on a load dyno).

[UselessPickles]

Ive been searching for about 40 min now, and cannot find a clear final answer about the inner working of the dynojet. Ive read arguments from both sides of this in other forums and there is no clear post that would settle this.

I will call dynojet tomorow and make them email me a response I can post.

It will depend on exactly which model of dynojet dyno. Some are inertia dynos, others are load bearing dynos.

Simple inertia dynos are only capable of acceleration sweep tests, and the load is simpy the mass of the dyno drum. This type of dyno is 100% guaranteed to have the problems I'm trying to describe with significantly different results with a turbocharged vehicle with different transmission and/or axle ratios. Rotational inertia of the drivetrain/tires/etc also affects the readings on these dynos, 100% guaranteed.

Load bearing dynos are capable of performing steady state dyno pulls, where it holds the engine steady at full throttle and records the amount of load (torque) was required to hold the engine at a steady rpm (rinse and repeat for many different engine speeds, and you get data points to form a cull rpm range dyno chart). This would give consistent results no matter what transmission gear, axle ratio, or tire size was used, because there is no torque lost to accelerating those components (so therefore no differences in the amount of torque lost to accelerating different configurations of those components), and the turbo lag would not be an issue either because the turbo would be allow to spool up at each rpm point and reach equilibrium before the measurement is taken.

Load bearing dynos can also perform acceleration sweep tests, but can be configured to perform the sweep in different ways. This is even more complicated than a sweep test on an inertia dyno, because at least an inertia dyno can only operate in one mode. The results of a sweep test on a load dyno can be affected by a combination of gear ratios, tire size/weight, AND how the dyno operator configured the dyno to operate (slower sweep with more load? faster sweep with less load? constant load? varying load to achieve constant rate of acceleration?).

Yes, it's a big mess :)

[UselessPickles]

So there's a catch 22 here.

A steady state dyno chart is the only way to get guaranteed consistent and comparable dyno results (regardless of gears, tires, etc).

But a steady state dyno chart is arguably not "realistic", because we use the torque/power of our engines primarily to ACCELERATE... not to maintain steady state speed. A tiny fraction of the peak power is actually required to maintain steady speed. A steady state dyno chart will show the highest results of all, but you will never experience that amount of torque/power while accelerating on the street.

When accelerating on the street, some of that torque/power gets used up to accelerate the drivetrain and wheels. The faster you accelerate (i.e., lower transmission gear), the more of the torque/power is lost to accelerating the drivetrain and wheels.

With a turbo, the effect is compounded by the turbo spooling more slowly when under less load in lower transmission gears. Or you can look at it from the other direction and be happy that with higher transmission gears, the turbo has the advantage of spooling up more under higher load to produce some more power, making up for some of the loss of torque multiplication from upshifting to a higher gear :)

(I've actually noticed that compared to my expectations based on how 1st and 2nd gear feel, 3rd pulls VERY strong all the way up to redline, without ever feeling like it's losing steam due to increasing air resistance.)


So what people really care about is a representation of how the vehicle will accelerate on the street. It makes sense that the best dyno test would be one that mimics acceleration on the street.

Load bearing dynos can be configured to perform sweep tests that simulate actual acceleration on the street, by dynamically adjusting the load of the dyno throughout the test to simulate both the load of the weight of the vehicle, and the load of air resistance (which increases with speed, proportional to the square of speed). This only works well if the dyno is accurately configured with the vehicle's weight and aerodynamic drag constant (drag area). I know Mustang dynos work this way. I'm not sure if the load bearing Dynojet dynos can do this. Even if you configure the dyno accurately, you still have problems. Which gear do you use? Do you simulate a fast 1st gear acceleration, which will give the lowest results (due to larger rotational inertia losses from the drivetrain, and slower spooling turbo with respect to engine speed), but most accurately represent the most acceleration you'll ever feel from the vehicle? Do you simulate acceleration the highest gear that can reach the rev limiter, which would give the highest results (least rotational inertia loss, turbo spooled more fully at lower rpms), but not accurately represent the power you will use in everyday driving? Or do you go with some middle gear for a balance of impressive numbers and realistic representation of what you'll experience most often on the road? Different jeeps with different tires and axle ratios would also produce different results on this type of dyno pull, which would accurately reflect their affect on real world driving performance.

[JeepLab]

The Dynojet response is at the top, my question is at the bottom.

Ross,

The reading (as you call it) will most likely be different because the work performed by the Jeep will different with different rear gears.
Even without changing the rear gear, you can make a run in 3rd and another in 4th and so on and they will show different HP.
But think about what is going on here---
the computer is monitoring the acceleration of the dyno drum, it has no idea what type of vehicle is on it or what gear it is in.
Measuring Rear Wheel HP where the tire touches the drum means any change made before the drum has the potential to change the RWHP .

Above is some theory to ponder.
Please don’t believe everything you read in forums.

Thanks,
Bill


From: ross@jeeplab.com [mailto:ross@jeeplab.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 7:59 PM
To: dynotech@dynojet.com
Subject: Dynamometer Tech. Inquiry

Entered on: http://www.dynojet.com/Contact/Dynojet-sales.aspx

Submitted On: 8/11/2014 10:58:33 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding: Model 224x
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: ross
Email: ross@jeeplab.com
Country: United States
Comments: Im from JeepLab.com and we are dyno testing a new turbo Jeep Wrangler with a dynojet. The argument in the forum right now is weather or not the axle gear ratio will alter the dynojet's reading. Will 3.21 gearing give a different dyno reading than 4.88 gearing assuming all other variables are the same? Thank you!

[Yoinkers]

Soooooooooooooooo where do we go from here?

NOLA, Did you ever get the instructions?

We will need the stats on the NOLA jeep to compare to JG for a point of reference?

[NOLAjeeper]

Nope did not get the instruction manual. I'm out of town until Sunday.. I dropped my rig off Tuesday morning without the instruction manual, and emailed Dan at prodigy .. Told him I had dropped off the jeep and the shop was waiting for his instructions.. Haven't heard from the shop or prodigy. So I am assuming everything is going well. I will update whenever I get additional info.

[Snarf77]

Nope did not get the instruction manual. I'm out of town until Sunday.. I dropped my rig off Tuesday morning without the instruction manual, and emailed Dan at prodigy .. Told him I had dropped off the jeep and the shop was waiting for his instructions.. Haven't heard from the shop or prodigy. So I am assuming everything is going well. I will update whenever I get additional info.

We have a wide array of pictures of the install. I'm not sure of the utility of each one. If your installers run into a challenge - post it here and I'll try to post some pictures to illustrate how it was solved in our installation. Worst case - I can get some picture of how its set up in JG and post those.

[NOLAjeeper]

Thanks! I haven't heard from the shop.. So I'm assuming everything went well. They said they would call me if they ran into any complications. I'm sure Dan contacted them and instructed them. Thanks again though.

[Rexx19]

NOLA did you dyno the truck before the turbo?

[Yoinkers]

Did NOLA say his gear ratio?

and if pickles has 3.21s, shouldnt he make a lot more power?

If he is putting stage 2 on, and he has the far higher gear ratio, and all the same parts as JG, if he would dyno, we would have a clear answer.

We could also get to the bottom of what the actual value of the axle gearing is.

[NOLAjeeper]

Did NOLA say his gear ratio?

and if pickles has 3.21s, shouldnt he make a lot more power?

If he is putting stage 2 on, and he has the far higher gear ratio, and all the same parts as JG, if he would dyno, we would have a clear answer.

We could also get to the bottom of what the actual value of the axle gearing is.

No I did not dyo the jeep before the turbo.

Jeep has 5.13 gears auto.

[Pznivy]

I wanted to throw a shout out to all of you guys putting your jeeps on the line for this info. Nola, Jesse, Pickles,

JL started by putting BB on the operating table with the RIPP when we were all terrified of ticking pentastars. Put a blower on? It was crazy at the time. I remember watching the cross country run where they got the keys from RIPP and drove that first supercharged Jeep completely untested from NJ to MOAB in like one day. I was on the edge of my seat watching the live posts from the road as they went. I was waiting for the posts to stop. Or a post with the jeep with the hood up on the side of the road.

They made it, with real pioneer spirit. You guys with the turbos all share that spirit. And from the rest of us reading, Thank You.

[jeepsking]

http://im63.gulfup.com/4Qn3e2.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?6e5v8m) got mine ;)

[NOLAjeeper]

http://im63.gulfup.com/4Qn3e2.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?6e5v8m) got mine ;)

SWeet!! congrats!!

[JeepLab]

http://im63.gulfup.com/4Qn3e2.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?6e5v8m) got mine ;)

EXCELLENT!

we want pics!

[JeepLab]

I wanted to throw a shout out to all of you guys putting your jeeps on the line for this info. Nola, Jesse, Pickles,

JL started by putting BB on the operating table with the RIPP when we were all terrified of ticking pentastars. Put a blower on? It was crazy at the time. I remember watching the cross country run where they got the keys from RIPP and drove that first supercharged Jeep completely untested from NJ to MOAB in like one day. I was on the edge of my seat watching the live posts from the road as they went. I was waiting for the posts to stop. Or a post with the jeep with the hood up on the side of the road.

They made it, with real pioneer spirit. You guys with the turbos all share that spirit. And from the rest of us reading, Thank You.

NJ to colorado was 30 hours. Then we slept for the first time. Then denver to moab the next day. (6.5 more hours)

[Rexx19]

http://im63.gulfup.com/4Qn3e2.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?6e5v8m) got mine ;)

Everyone has a turbo but me. WTF!

[JeepLab]

NOLA! did you get your jeep? Is it a rocket?

[Yoinkers]

NOLA! did you get your jeep? Is it a rocket?

X2, Im waiting with baited breath over here! Spill it NOLA! love it? disappointed? good tune? bad tune?

[NOLAjeeper]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the shop did not complete the install while i was out of town! bummer!.. hence the reason they never called me while i was out of town to come have someone pick it up.. I called them first thing this morning 8:30am (when the shop opens up) and they tell me that they are rolling the jeep on the dyno now..im thinking, okay stage 2 dyno pull... Nope! they havent even started the install. They were doing the stage 1 pull. Shop manager said they got slammed last week and could not get to my install.. sooo.. Im scheduled for dyno numbers and completion tomorrow.. I know i know.. I Feel the same as everyone on here... Lets see the numbers and get this back on the road. Hang in there guys. :) Ill update tomorrow.

[JeepLab]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the shop did not complete the install while i was out of town! bummer!.. hence the reason they never called me while i was out of town to come have someone pick it up.. I called them first thing this morning 8:30am (when the shop opens up) and they tell me that they are rolling the jeep on the dyno now..im thinking, okay stage 2 dyno pull... Nope! they havent even started the install. They were doing the stage 1 pull. Shop manager said they got slammed last week and could not get to my install.. sooo.. Im scheduled for dyno numbers and completion tomorrow.. I know i know.. I Feel the same as everyone on here... Lets see the numbers and get this back on the road. Hang in there guys. :) Ill update tomorrow.

Can you tell us the type of dyno used?

and thank you for checking in!

[NOLAjeeper]

DynoDynamics 450DS

http://southernhotrod.com/services.html

[UselessPickles]

More prodigy turbo dyno data...
just like the one dyno chart from Jesse's Girl.

ROSS: Im editing this post because its our data thats been stolen. The chart pickles posted is our dyno chart.

I'm pretty furious about the whole thing. You can't trust anyone these days. And I do not want to drive traffic to these people.

This is the first post I've ever edited. Lets hope its the last.

[NOLAjeeper]

This is jesse's girl. Lol

[JeepLab]

Thats Jesse's Girl on the dyno.

[UselessPickles]

Lol... oops.

[JeepLab]

good catch.

[Yoinkers]

did anyone else notice new member "SOUTHERNHOTROD"?

I can't wait to see what these guys have to say. They are NOLA's shop right?

[UselessPickles]

Where'd NOLA go? He should have his Jeep and dyno results by now...

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLAjeeper is Frustrated, confused, and lost... :( Yes southernhotrod is the shop that is doing my stage 2 install. Eddy is the owner of the shop and he is the one taking charge of doing my install. They have hit a lot of road bumps with the install of stage 2 kit. The intercooler will not fit without modifying the "jeep grill", relocating the auto trans cooler, and doing some custom work to the intercooler silicone connection tubes. The kit does come with a replacement auto trans cooler, however it is not a perfect kit nor is a high performance replacement cooler. This thing is just a big mess. Had the same issue with the dyno, could not get out of gear in 2wheel drive manual..So we couldnt dyno the stage 1. I asked eddy to sign up here to give his thoughts and answer any questions the jeep community may have regarding the install/dyno/turbo etc.. This is not a simple bolt on stage 2 install. At least not for the automatics.. My impression is the stage 2 (the one that was shipped to me) more complicated, requires moderate modifications to intercooler and jeep grill. And still no Instruction manual. The shop has been going back and forth with prodigy with this install. This is what i know from what Southernhotrod has passed down to me. Like i said Eddy is a forum member and will answer any questions you guys may have. But so far its disappointing that this kit is not an out of the box simple bolt on plug and play system. In my case. I can not speak for anyone else. The jeep is still in the shop hopefully they can figure something out with prodigy.. YEP BUMMER!! sorry guys..

[UselessPickles]

The intercooler will not fit without modifying the "jeep grill", relocating the auto trans cooler, and doing some custom work to the intercooler silicone connection tubes.

This was my impression when I test fitted my intercooler. The cylinder on the side of the A/C condenser seems to be in the way. With the intercooler contacting the cylinder, the grill contacts the intercooler before the top of the grill is pushed on all the way.

I talked to both Jessee (Snarf) and Dan at Prodigy, confirming that this is normal! You just need to push the grill the rest of the way on, which will push the intercooler against the cylinder, and flex the cylinder back a bit. Dan assured me that there is no long term reliability concern with this pressure between the grill, intercooler and A/C condenser cylinder. He says it the same exact grill configuration and intercooler as their 2007-2011 3.8 turbo kits, and they have not had any issues with any of those. Wes at Prodigy insisted on having the largest possible intercooler that could be successfully crammed into the grill area.

As for the silicone connectors, Dan told me that connecting those all up will be the toughest part of the stage 2 install. He says it's very tight, and requires shifting things around just the right amount, etc., but it is doable.

So, the grill and silicone connectors should not require modification.

I can't comment on the trans cooler solution, since I have a manual.

[NOLAjeeper]

This was my impression when I test fitted my intercooler. The cylinder on the side of the A/C condenser seems to be in the way. With the intercooler contacting the cylinder, the grill contacts the intercooler before the top of the grill is pushed on all the way.

I talked to both Jessee (Snarf) and Dan at Prodigy, confirming that this is normal! You just need to push the grill the rest of the way on, which will push the intercooler against the cylinder, and flex the cylinder back a bit. Dan assured me that there is no long term reliability concern with this pressure between the grill, intercooler and A/C condenser cylinder. He says it the same exact grill configuration and intercooler as their 2007-2011 3.8 turbo kits, and they have not had any issues with any of those. Wes at Prodigy insisted on having the largest possible intercooler that could be successfully crammed into the grill area.

As for the silicone connectors, Dan told me that connecting those all up will be the toughest part of the stage 2 install. He says it's very tight, and requires shifting things around just the right amount, etc., but it is doable.

So, the grill and silicone connectors should not require modification.

I can't comment on the trans cooler solution, since I have a manual.

If you have an auto, you will def need modify the silicone connectors. Because you have the auto trans cooler inbetween the intercooler and the radiator thus pushing the intercooler outwards more. The shop will make it fit, they can install it. Its just not a simple install.

[JeepLab]

If you have an auto, you will def need modify the silicone connectors. Because you have the auto trans cooler inbetween the intercooler and the radiator thus pushing the intercooler outwards more. The shop will make it fit, they can install it. Its just not a simple install.

Do you have pics of the problem areas?

[Snarf77]

If you have an auto, you will def need modify the silicone connectors. Because you have the auto trans cooler inbetween the intercooler and the radiator thus pushing the intercooler outwards more. The shop will make it fit, they can install it. Its just not a simple install.

My intercooler (manual trans) fits right up against the grill (or maybe 1mm behind) and there was no pressure when installing the grill. In this picture, I actually have some space between grill and aluminum.

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/14802973849_842aa056b9_c.jpg

I had some earlier model silicone hoses that were larger diameter so we had to do some removal of plastic up front..it wasn't too bad though. Some pictures of your situation will help. WHen I get home, I'll post some new pics to show our solutions and maybe your shop will get an idea of how best to work yours.

[UselessPickles]

there was no pressure when installing the grill. In this picture, I actually have some space between grill and aluminum.

Then there must have been pressure when installing the intercooler and hooking up the silicon connectors, and now the connectors are holding the intercooler in place, slightly away from the grill. There's no way that my intercooler will fit between the grill and the tall skinny black cylinder that is on the side of the A/C condenser.

Do you have A/C?

[Snarf77]

957

Stage 1 is shipped with Red spring .4 bar
Stage 2 is White .5 bar

Read the bottom right of the image. I personally prefer the White and Green combination for Maximum fun.;)

Looks like the spring that went into my wastegate may be the far left "grey" or MVR-Plain. It could be the black and a figment of the camera's color settings.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3921/14803209118_7edb8491a5_c.jpg

[Snarf77]

Then there must have been pressure when installing the intercooler and hooking up the silicon connectors, and now the connectors are holding the intercooler in place, slightly away from the grill. There's no way that my intercooler will fit between the grill and the tall skinny black cylinder that is on the side of the A/C condenser.

Do you have A/C?

I do have A/C. I will take a better picture when I get home and post it up.

[jeepsking]

The kit did not came with installation manual so I had to print it from the site. It turns up to be stage 1 only. Ok went to intercooler upgrade kit again stage 1 manual. So went to 3.8 intercooler installation. I won't install it now. I might start on october.

[jeepsking]

http://im77.gulfup.com/AyHdBM.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?NWZSII) how about this one for the time being :)

[JeepLab]

http://im77.gulfup.com/AyHdBM.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?NWZSII) how about this one for the time being :)

I like my boost gauges the size of flavor flav's clock!

[NOLAjeeper]

Just spoke with the shop! They are almost done! Going there now to take some pics. I'll post soon.

[NOLAjeeper]

The kit did not came with installation manual so I had to print it from the site. It turns up to be stage 1 only. Ok went to intercooler upgrade kit again stage 1 manual. So went to 3.8 intercooler installation. I won't install it now. I might start on october.

I know all about that! I don't know why prodigy doesn't send instruction manuals with their kits..

[Pznivy]

Nola, are you dyno'ing stage 1 and 2 or just 2?

[Gunner]

I've built a lot of engines thru the years. Turbo, 10-71 roots, Maggie's and vortecs. They all make power in different ways. I have had operators who really knew their stuff and those that shouldn't be allowed near a dyno. It is going to be hard to get a baseline that is exactly like Ross's first one since all jeeps will be slightly different due to the nature of the adaptive computer. If a guy drives real easy the computer learns his habits and adjusts for him. If you put it on a dyno and compare it to a guy who is a speed demon it will read different. Also there is the correction factors. When we dynoed my Nitrous Suzuki M109. We played with the factors a bit. We were able to get 190 hp at the rear tire. The correct reading was 167 hp. That was with hitting it just right and lots of cool air from the blowers. So many differences here. Ross has done an incredible job of trying to keep a level playing field. The problem is life is not level and dynos are different just as the operators are. But one Heck of a job so far guys.

[NOLAjeeper]

Here are some pics. They fished up the install. They did some modifying of the location of the auto trans cooler. I'm not sure if you can see it clearly, but it has been lowered from its original position. They did not have to modify the silicone adaptors on the intercooler. This was a big learning experience for the shop as well as the guys at prodigy. All they have left to install are the air fuel and boost gauges. Southernhotrod has been great with me and this project. This is their first wrangler pentastar 3.6 auto turbo install and have spent well over 12 hours with the install. Before anyone shouts out that this install should not take longer than 6 hours please only speak for yourself. There were a lot of holes in the instruction manual calls between the shop and prodigy. Remember it is a brand new kit and we are all learning something new with this kit. Also I'm sorry guys but we couldn't get stage 1 dyno. Couldn't get answers from prodigy or diablo on how to get the computer to get in dyno mode. They will attempt to dyno again tomorrow with stage 2. They said they will try something else... So we shall see.. Here are some pics.

[NOLAjeeper]

10021003100410011005

[JeepLab]

10021003100410011005

Nola, are you uploading the pics? PM me if your having problems.

[NOLAjeeper]

10061007100810091010

I'm on my phone trying to upload them . Let me know if they still are not showing up.

[JeepLab]

10061007100810091010

i'm on my phone trying to upload them . Let me know if they still are not showing up.

everyone hang with me! The jeeplab phone app will be done any minute!

[Yoinkers]

NOLA is your jeep "DOZER"?

i like the color.

[UselessPickles]

BTW - I just went out and looked at that black cylinder on the side of the A/C condenser again. I pushed on it carefully and was able to actually bend it back a bit such that it held its new position. I think this may give me the room I need for the intercooler. I'll test fit it again sometime after the weekend and report back.

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLA is your jeep "DOZER"?

i like the color.

Yes Dozer she is! Thanks :)

[jeepsking]

NOLA did they cut the metalic portion to fit the IC hoses?

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLA did they cut the metalic portion to fit the IC hoses?

No. The only thing they cut/trim was the plastic to fit the silicone.

[Snarf77]

No. The only thing they cut/trim was the plastic to fit the silicone.

Same with mine. A quick bit of action with a dremel or reciprocating saw provided all the necessary modification to make the intercooler connections. Looking good so far. Can't wait to hear about the performance.

[NOLAjeeper]

Turbo guys, and everyone else. What are you doing to keep your temps under the hood down? Ive got the poison spyder hood louver, turbo blanket, and Im going to wrap the turbo exhaust pipe this weekend with DEI Lava wraps. Ive noticed its really hot under my hood. Yes of course because of the turbo and the piping, but i thought the hood louver would reduced the temps more. It does a pretty good job, i can see the heat waves coming out from the vents. But Im still noticing a lot of heat even with the blanket and the louver. It also doesnt help that i live in New Orleans and its super humid down here. Let me know what you guys are doing or if you have any other suggestions.

[Rexx19]

Turbo guys, and everyone else. What are you doing to keep your temps under the hood down? Ive got the poison spyder hood louver, turbo blanket, and Im going to wrap the turbo exhaust pipe this weekend with DEI Lava wraps. Ive noticed its really hot under my hood. Yes of course because of the turbo and the piping, but i thought the hood louver would reduced the temps more. It does a pretty good job, i can see the heat waves coming out from the vents. But Im still noticing a lot of heat even with the blanket and the louver. It also doesnt help that i live in New Orleans and its super humid down here. Let me know what you guys are doing or if you have any other suggestions.

Where is your needle on the temp gauge?

someone here was complaining that they thought their jeep was running hot.

[JeepLab]

Where is your needle on the temp gauge?

someone here was complaining that they thought their jeep was running hot.

That was me. and X2 on the needle. Id like to see it also.

[NOLAjeeper]

My Temp needle sits right at the middle. I know this is just a dummy gauge, im not concerned about the engine overheating thats not the issue. Just with the added mods (turbo down pipe right at the front of the engine) causing excessive heat inside the engine bay. I wrapped the down pipe with Titanium exhaust wrap and that made a big difference in the reduction of heat in the engine bay. It was a pain in the ass wrapping the tube inside the engine... No room! took about 2hours. But well worth it. Ill post pics. And just a quick update on the stage 2. Its FAST! noticeable power gain from the stage 1 upgrade! And with the new tune the jeep is running better and better each time prodigy release a new tune. Still data logging and sending it to prodigy for their R&D. Ill get some vids inside the cab as well as outside. And the Gauges are AWESomE! i would recommend boost gauge and the wide band gauge.

[NOLAjeeper]

That was me. and X2 on the needle. Id like to see it also.

Here are some pics of the temp guage and inside of the cab.10181019

[jeepsking]

Nola , thats awesome. I have 2 questions:

1- can we see a picture of where the boost sensor installed.

2- The place of radiator recovery tank pic.

[Yoinkers]

NOLA is your dyno chart coming? I'd like to see how it turns out compared to JG

[Snarf77]

Turbo guys, and everyone else. What are you doing to keep your temps under the hood down?

I have the metalcloak aluminum fender liners that replaced the plastic stock liners. They allow much more air movement within the engine compartment and through the engine compartment without really exposing the engine compartment to additional mud and grime when wheeling (to my surprise).

My hood is also fiberglass/carbon fiber with a scoop. I feel it really forces the air into the engine compartment and (maybe) down and out the fender wells.

That being said, the engine compartment is very warm when not moving. It doesn't affect engine temps but its enough to throw off my outside air temperature sensor while standing still. It will read hotter than the weather until I get moving again for a bit. No biggie.

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLA is your dyno chart coming? I'd like to see how it turns out compared to JG

Cant get the jeep in DYNO mode..Both of the shops i have taken the jeep to have not been able to dyno the jeep in 2wheel drive. It will not shift out of 1st gear when on the dyno in 2wheel drive. Southernhotrod, the shop that did my stage 2 install could not get any answers from Diablo or Prodigy on how to get the computer to get in dyno mode. If anyone knows how to get around this please let me know. 2012 jeep wrangler jku automatic.

[NOLAjeeper]

[QUOTE=jeepsking;2710]Nola , thats awesome. I have 2 questions:

1- can we see a picture of where the boost sensor installed.

2- The place of radiator recovery
Here is a picture of the recovery tank.. They installed in pretty close to ether the stock tank was located, just off to the left some (our left). If you follow the over flow hose you can see the black tank right behind the fan shroud. I'll get a pic of the the boost sensor install. I just need to know what I'm looking for?? Lol.

102110201022

[UselessPickles]

Can you provide any details about how that recovery tank is mounted there? I'm not thrilled with the low behind-the-bumper position that Prodigy intends for it.

[jeepsking]

Thanks Nola for pictures. Usually boost sensor comes after the throttle body. So it might be fitted on the intake beneath the engine cover.

[NOLAjeeper]

Pickles, I'll take pictures of the set up. I'll get them this evening.

[NOLAjeeper]

Thanks Nola for pictures. Usually boost sensor comes after the throttle body. So it might be fitted on the intake beneath the engine cover.

Ahh yes! I'll get some pics up of that as well this evening.

[UselessPickles]

jeepsking: An existing hard plastic vacuum line for the "purge control valve" is replaced with a vacuum hose with 2 "T" fittings. The wastegate and BOV sensing lines connect to the two T's on that vacuum line.

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/diy-turbo-discussion-14/53988d1346793381-boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-2-gif

Given the above diagram, both the wastegate and BOV are connected to "C" using a vacuum line shared with each other and the purge control valve.


This is not the ideal setup.

Ideally, the BOV should have its own dedicated line connected directly to the intake manifold, rather than teed into an existing line. Having a dedicated line ensures the quickest possible response of the BOV.

The wastegate should ideally not be connected to a vacuum source. Even TiAL (manufacturer of the wastegate) specifically says to use a pre-throttle-body boost source. It should be connected to either "A" or "B" in the diagram. Here's a good read about wastegate boost source options: http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/

Post #15 (http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/#post574757) in that thread specifically talks about why the wastegate should NOT be connected to the intake manifold (position "C" in the diagram).

I have asked Prodigy about this, and they say they have zero issues with their setup. Also, they say they tested the wastegate boost source both before (position "B" ) and after (position "C") the throttle body and found no difference. They chose position "C" and shared vacuum lines for ease of installation.


I'm not too concerned about the BOV having its own dedicated vacuum line. If the BOV responds quickly with a shared line, then it's fine.

I'm more concerned about the potential part throttle issues with the wastegate being connected to position "C" (see post #15 in the linked thread above).

Connecting the wastegate to the intake manifold seems to be a controversial subject on the internet. Many people on forums say they have run that way for years with no problems. Other people report part-throttle drivability issues and part-throttle high load compressor surge (like when driving up a long hill). Some people say the intake manifold source will give you quicker spooling and faster throttle response. I'm sure the exact outcome depends on many factors and the entire turbo/engine system as a whole. I've read many threads on the topic and talked to both TiAL and Prodigy directly. Based on all of that, I have concluded for myself that there's no good reason to disregard TiAL's instructions to specifically use a pre-throttle-body boost-only (no vacuum) source to control the wastegate.

For this reason, I decided to order one of these that I will use to add a boost source to the silicone coupler/elbow that connects to the throttle body (position "B" in the diagram):

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-FTG-010&Category_Code=BCS

1023

It's a very simple/inexpensive modification to make me happy that I've done it the "right way". I will probably try both the Prodigy setup and my modified setup to see if I notice any differences.

[jeepsking]

Thanks Jeff for these info's. What about the boost sensor pick up point to the gauge. As far as I know it should be in position "C".

[UselessPickles]

Oh, yeah. Boost gauge should always be at position "C". Ideally, each component should have its own dedicated line, rather than using T fittings to split/share lines to a vacuum/boost source. But that would require adding new barbed hose fittings to the intake manifold for the BOV and boost gauge. I haven't found any good info on how to add fittings to a plastic intake manifold yet.

[NOLAjeeper]

Thanks Nola for pictures. Usually boost sensor comes after the throttle body. So it might be fitted on the intake beneath the engine cover.

1025

This what your looking for? Looks like they used the T fitting method.

[jeepsking]

Yes it is. So adding T fitting gives inaccurate boost reading?

[UselessPickles]

Not inaccurate. Just potentially slower response, and probably on the scale of hundredths of a second difference. It wouldn't matter at all for the boost gauge. For the BOV, as long as it responds quickly enough to avoid compressor surge, then the T fitting for that is fine too. A dedicated vacuum source for the BOV might possibly keep the turbo spooled a bit better during gear changes, but whether or not the difference is worth the effort of creating a dedicated vacuum source would require testing and data logging to determine.

[Yoinkers]

Testing and Data logging! Yeah!

staying spooled with the turbo is my main concern with it. If there was a way to blend an sc with a turbo, so that it worked of the engine low, and exhaust high it would solve all problems.

Work that out, will you pickles?

[UselessPickles]

If there was a way to blend an sc with a turbo...

That's called "twincharging": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger

It's very complex to get it done right. I would not want to be the one to try to combine a turbo kit with a supercharger kit on a previously non-boosted engine and get it all working/tuned properly. I would also not want to pay the bill for a performance shop to figure it all out. It appears that the Magnuson supercharger would be physically compatible with the Prodigy turbo. Who wants to try it?

[FLIPmeOVER]

NOLA Jeeper!

werent you going to dyno?

[AGOM]

Hi all,
Been reading the posts for sometime, became a member last week and posting for the first time.
Ordered my Prodigy stage 2, and can't wait to install it, would love to read more feedback. It kinda went all quite.
Anyone doing an instal on an Auto jk?

[JeepLab]

Hi all,
Been reading the posts for sometime, became a member last week and posting for the first time.
Ordered my Prodigy stage 2, and can't wait to install it, would love to read more feedback. It kinda went all quite.
Anyone doing an instal on an Auto jk?

WELCOME!

It did kinda go quiet. Here is the current status, Jesse is away in a training seminar, that our turbo. NOLA, you have an update on your unit?

Also, with the auto, Wes from prodigy told us that the auto is the faster option as the turbo spools up and stays spooled as the tranny shifts. Not clutch, not power loss. When you get your turbo installed, tell us if you agree.

[AGOM]

Thnx JeepLab,
Sure I will, I don't know when it will ship out, but I'm already clearing up my garage and cleaning up my tools....lol getting really excited with the prep work.
Also got the Titanium wrap, heat control is going to be a challenge for me here. So any more useful tips on that will be great.
Anyone managed to fit a snorkel? would really like to use my snorkel it will help with the heat issue.
I'm doing this instal solo!! So I'm taking notes of all the trials from you and from UselessPickles who has been good with his write up on the instal.

[AGOM]

Also if anyone has any advise on exhaust mods.

[Pznivy]

Also if anyone has any advise on exhaust mods.

I would hold off on the exhaust until prodigy tells us who they prefer, as anyone can bend pipe, all exhausts are not created equal.

[UselessPickles]

There was also some talk about Prodigy getting a cat-back exhaust system custom designed for use with their turbo kit.

I'm quite happy with the turbo and stock exhaust combination. During normal gentle driving and steady cruising, there are no sounds that would cause anyone to suspect that my Jeep has any performance mods.

[AGOM]

That is also a good point U.P, but any compromise on performance?

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLA Jeeper!

werent you going to dyno?

That was the plan, but the shop had issues with the CPU. They couldnt get the jeep into dyno mode and once on the dyno the jeep would not shift out of 1st gear. They couldnt figure it out. Diablo and Prodigy had no answers to the issue.. Yeah was a bummer.

[NOLAjeeper]

Also if anyone has any advise on exhaust mods.

i have this on my jeep: Dynomax® Ultra Flo Evolution Competition Cat-Back Exhaust in Stainless Steel. I had it before i installed the turbo system. I like it and it sounds great. Eddie from Wayalife has a video of his Jeep (Rubicat) with a view from inside as well as outside. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPe0O9TPfj4

[UselessPickles]

any compromise on performance?

No one knows. Someone would have to do dyno comparisons of different exhaust systems on a turbo jeep (same jeep, same dyno).

[Yoinkers]

That was the plan, but the shop had issues with the CPU. They couldnt get the jeep into dyno mode and once on the dyno the jeep would not shift out of 1st gear. They couldnt figure it out. Diablo and Prodigy had no answers to the issue.. Yeah was a bummer.

heartbroken!

[Yoinkers]

No one knows. Someone would have to do dyno comparisons of different exhaust systems on a turbo jeep (same jeep, same dyno).

JL did a piece years ago on the AFE setup. before and after intake install, before and after exhaust install.

If i remember right, there was only a nominal change.

[JeepLab]

JL did a piece years ago on the AFE setup. before and after intake install, before and after exhaust install.

If i remember right, there was only a nominal change.

The sound changed a lot, there was not a real power increase. The AFE intake was fantastic. The exhaust, and all exhausts Ive seen and driven have been more noise than power.

BB wears her stock exhaust currently. I've had other exhausts on, but i like the stock unit's tone. I want to hear the SC whistle and the Pentastar sing. Thats music, putting an exhaust on drowns that out. Are there good ones out there? I'm sure there are.

[AGOM]

I like the idea of keeping it stock, because i am not one for drown or more noise.
So if its not making a noticeable gain in performance than the sound of the turbo to me is more tempting.

[UselessPickles]

Turbo sounds are cool :)

The turbo itself is quiet. Don't expect to hear the turbo spool up and whistle like a turbo diesel truck or bus. It's the sounds of exhaust flowing through the wastegate and pressurized air exiting through the BOV that you will hear.

The sound of the BOV is causing me to shift gears later than usual just so I can hear it. I'm not sure I'll ever get tired of hearing it. I hope I thoroughly confuse someone at some point that hears the BOV as I drive by and looks around trying to find the turbo car that made the sound.

[AGOM]

Your killing me U.P....lol
Come on prodigy ship ship ship.

[JeepLab]

Your killing me U.P....lol
Come on prodigy ship ship ship.

X2 on turbo sounds. It begs you to drop the hammer and shift.

You'll be serenading yourself right into prison.

[AGOM]

😂😂
Lucky german's !!!

[AGOM]

So i got news my kit is shipping today . Yeeeaahhhh
Im already suffereing sleep deficiency, a lot of day dreaming, no work efficiency.
Is that normal ..... Lol

[Snarf77]

So i got news my kit is shipping today . Yeeeaahhhh
Im already suffereing sleep deficiency, a lot of day dreaming, no work efficiency.
Is that normal ..... Lol

I understand. Will you be doing the installation or working with a shop to do the installation? Make sure to take some pictures before and after installation!

[AGOM]

Actually i will be doing the installation, i have a freind who is an expert that will try and get time out of his shop to check-up on me.
I will do my best to get as many pictures posted, thats if i don't get too deep into the zone!!
Will keep you posted

[jeepsking]

http://im57.gulfup.com/bYrus1.jpg (http://www.gulfup.com/?KV5aQ6)

[AGOM]

anyone installed the Turbo stage 2 on an automatic trans 2012+ jk ?
any pics or instructions on whats going on with the trans cooler and intercooler?

[Rob]

I have to ask guys, how do you like the turbo better than the SC's I know with the SC it takes power to make power and not the case when it comes to turbo's. Really just looking for your personal opinion's since there isn't anyone around here running them. In addition, when it comes to the turbo I seen your dyno numbers, but I am just curious if you have gained any lower end power or is it all in the mid to upper. Thanks for your time and I have to say that what all of you are doing is really going the extra mile and I just want to say thanks.
Rob

[jeepsking]

Cant answer you cuz i didn't install mine yet. I have a question anyone knows if we can fit a turbo timer plug and play

[NOLAjeeper]

anyone installed the Turbo stage 2 on an automatic trans 2012+ jk ?
any pics or instructions on whats going on with the trans cooler and intercooler?

i have an automatic, a shop did my install and it was a challenge for them to get the intercooler and transmission cooler to fit and to function. I posted some pics of the final install some threads back.. look for them on here and let me know if you need more pics. Hope the install goes well.. Keep us updated!

[UselessPickles]

how do you like the turbo better than the SC's

I'm still waiting for JeepLab to get the Prodigy, RIPP and Magnuson Jeeps together for a compare/contrast driving session. You guys need to take turns driving each other's Jeeps then each write up your thoughts on how they compare subjectively (driveability, throttle response, "fun factor", etc).


I am just curious if you have gained any lower end power or is it all in the mid to upper.

The gains are definitely concentrated in the mid to upper rpm range. The lower RPM range is tough to comment on right now because I'm still working with Prodigy to resolve some annoyances in the 1500-2500 rpm range. If this RPM range can be fully refined with tuning, then I should theoretical have *some* gains as low as about 1800 rpm, because thats where the turbo starts creating positive boost at full throttle.

There's about 1 psi boost at 2500. Soon after 2500, the boost climbs sharply to full boost around 4000 rpm, then full boost is maintained from 4000-6500 rpm. The kick-in-the-pants power starts around 3000-3500 rpm.

[UselessPickles]

BTW - I finally found a straight answer to "how much boost?": https://www.prodigyperformance.com/3-6l-jeep-wrangler-turbo-kit/

According to that page, stage 1 produces 6.8 psi and stage 2 produces 8.2 psi.

There's some confusion about the waste gate spring ratings, because they are rated for a certain amount of boost with an assumption of a 1:1 relationship between exhaust pressure and boost pressure. The waste gate is a simple mechanical valve that involves the exhaust pressure trying to crack the valve open, while both the spring AND the boost pressure fight to keep the valve closed. Different combinations of turbo turbine and compressor housings and wheels result in different amounts of "leverage" that the exhaust has on the turbo against the intake air pressure, so different turbo systems on different vehicles can all have different relationships between exhaust pressure and the resulting boost pressure. To over-simplify it, the turbo is almost like a set of gears through which the exhaust "drives" the intake pressure, and different turbo setups have different "gear ratios".

So TiAL's wastegate springs are rated for how much boost they will allow, assuming a 1:1 exhaust:boost pressure ratio, with a note that a +/-2 psi difference in actual boost pressure is not uncommon.

http://tialsport.com/documents/MVSprings2.jpg

Stage 1 includes the red spring, rated for 0.4 bar (5.8 psi), but Prodigy states 6.8 psi in the page above, and calls it a 7 psi system (small amount of rounding; fair enough).

Stage 2 includes the white spring, rated for 0.5 bar (7.25 psi), but Prodigy states 8.2 psi and calls it a 9 psi system (that's quite a bit of rounding; I think 8 psi would be more fair).

So this means the Prodigy turbo has *less* than 1:1 exhaust:boost pressure ratio (more boost from less exhaust pressure), and produces more than the spring's rated boost. Looks like the pattern is that we could assume that the Prodigy turbo system will make about 1 psi more boost than the waste gate spring's rating.

I was seeing 8 psi with stage 1, so I must have had something wrong with my install (perhaps a small leak in the connection of the boost sensing line to the waste gate?). This explains why stage 2 didn't really feel obviously more powerful than stage 1 to me, because I was getting extra power from stage 1 that I shouldn't have had :)

I'm seeing about 8.0-8.1 psi max with stage 2, so I'm much closer to "normal" now. I'm either within a normal amount of small variation of boost pressure, or I have a tiny boost leak somewhere bleeding off 0.1-0.2 psi.

[Snarf77]

Jeff - can I send you some logs later? I'm curious if we're making the same amount of boost at the same points.

[UselessPickles]

I would enjoy comparing your data logs to mine more than I should admit.

[Snarf77]

I would enjoy comparing your data logs to mine more than I should admit.

Sent brother. Now that being said, I did just plug in my intune and it downloaded an update. I'm not quite sure how to tell if I have a new tune available for the jeep (on the intune) but I can always update and rerun.

I feel like I might have an air leak somewhere so the comparison might illustrate or back that up.

[UselessPickles]

According to your data log, you are getting 9 psi boost. Looks like I'm the one with a possible air leak with my 8 psi boost.

[UselessPickles]

I talked to Prodigy yesterday about their dyno results that show a loss of low-end torque compared to stock:


1316


It comes down to that's what the dyno results were, so that's what they published. No further official explanation.

I had previously asked about why the torque/power suddenly drops before 6500 rpm, and I was told that the dyno operator let off the throttle as soon as the power started dropping, because they were focused on getting peak numbers.

My speculation is that the dyno operator, being focused on peak numbers, may not have been at full throttle yet in the low rpm range where the chart shows a loss. I think it was just a poor decision on their part to publish a dyno chart that was not a proper representation of the full rpm range.

I was also told that a customer got before/after dyno results and found that low rpm results were even with stock (no loss).

Another customer will be getting a turbo installed in a few weeks, including before/after dyno results. I hope that Prodigy considers obtaining third-party before/after results from customers and shares them.

Unfortunately, Prodigy cannot put their in-house jeep on the dyno for a "do over" dyno chart of stage 2. That Jeep is currently getting some additional changes made to it. Can't wait to see how that turns out.

[Snarf77]

Jesse's Girl will be back on the dyno eventually. I'll be doing some axle work with some Yukon kit in the rear, and hopefully a new driveshaft. Once she's up and running right again, I'll sticker her back on the rollers and see what's up.

[UselessPickles]

According to your data log, you are getting 9 psi boost. Looks like I'm the one with a possible air leak with my 8 psi boost.

Then again... it's also possible that I have the normal amount of boost (if we go by the Prodigy website page that claims 8.2 psi), and you have extra boost due to a small leak in the boost sensing line that connects to your waste gate.

I recently discovered that the hose fitting on my turbo for the waste gate line had a torn o-ring. This fitting is only used for stage 1, and is replaced with a plug when upgrading to stage 2. That torn o-ring could have bled off a bit of pressure in the waste gate line and caused my excess boost for stage 1.

[NOLAjeeper]

I would enjoy comparing your data logs to mine more than I should admit.


while we're at it can i send you mine too?? :) lets all 3 compare. Pickles how are you reading the files? just curious..

[UselessPickles]

More data! I'll send you a PM with my email address so you can send me some logs.

This page has a link to download the Diablosport data viewer, which is used to view the data logs: https://www.diablosport.com/products/intune/data-logging.html

It's in the section titled "Integrated PC Logging Software".

[UselessPickles]

NOLA: Bad news...

You're only getting 7.5 psi peak boost!

Worse news...

Your boost doesn't hold steady after it peaks. It falls off to only about 6.7 psi boost near red line.


I suspect that your wastegate boost sensing line is still hooked up in the stage 1 configuration (connected directly to the turbo outlet). For stage 2, it's supposed to be teed into a vacuum line that connects to the intake manifold (per Prodigy's instructions).

[NOLAjeeper]

NOLA: Bad news...

You're only getting 7.5 psi peak boost!

Worse news...

Your boost doesn't hold steady after it peaks. It falls off to only about 6.7 psi boost near red line.


I suspect that your wastegate boost sensing line is still hooked up in the stage 1 configuration (connected directly to the turbo outlet). For stage 2, it's supposed to be teed into a vacuum line that connects to the intake manifold (per Prodigy's instructions).


Thats not good! Thanks for the Info. Im on the hunt now for the escaping boost.. Can you show me a picture of your set up for the stage 2 wastegate configuration? For a reference point.. I had the shop install mine so i dont know what cross reference it to. Thanks.

[UselessPickles]

Go back to this post to see some details I already covered about where the wastegate line gets connected with stage 2, and where it really should get connected: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?146-JeepLab-Prodigy-Install-LIVE&p=2740&viewfull=1#post2740

Quick review...

This link has cool info and pictures to explain stuff: http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/diy-turbo-discussion-14/53988d1346793381-boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-2-gif

The wastegate should be connected to position "B", between the intercooler and the throttle body.

Stage 1 has the wastegate connected to position "A". Since stage 1 has no intercooler, this is fine. Without an intercooler, there is no significant difference in pressure measured from position "A" or position "B".

NOLA's problem is that he has the intercooler now, but his wastegate is still connected to position "A". He is experiencing lower peak boost as well as "boost sag", which is explained in the link above.

The official instructions for stage 2 have you connect the wastegate to position "C". This post explains why position "C" is bad: http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/#post574757


For my install, I used one of these to add a boost source at position "B" for my wastegate:
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ATP-FTG-010&Category_Code=BCS

http://jeeplab.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1023&d=1409091246



Here's the boost source for my waste gate:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/wastegate_boost_source.jpg


I zip-tied the waste gate line to the BOV line, and at two points on the radiator fan shroud. One of the points is simply tied to an existing wire that is secured to the fan shroud. I had to drill a small hole through an "arm" of the fan shroud closer to the BOV to add a zip tie there and hold the wastegate line away from the exhaust down pipe.

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/wastegate_line.jpg


And here's how my BOV line is teed into an existing vacuum source on the intake manifold:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/bov_line.jpg

[Yoinkers]

is there a standard solution to these varying boost pressures?

[UselessPickles]

There's no standard solution. First you need to know how much boost you're supposed to have and what the acceptable variation is among properly installed systems. If you're off by an unreasonable amount, then search for the cause and fix it :) Too much boost is most likely caused by a leak in the wastegate boost sensing line. Too little boost is most likely a boost leak in the intake system between the turbo and the throttle body.

NOLA's problem was easy to diagnose just from looking at the shape of his boost curve in his data log. Incorrect wastegate setup.

We still don't have a straight answer for what the normal amount of boost is yet. Snarf and I are off by 1 psi from each other, which seems like more than an acceptable variance to me. I'm interested in seeing how much boost NOLA has after correcting his wastegate setup.

If NOLA gets about 9 psi like Snarf, then I will suspect I have a boost leak, and I'll have to perform a boost leak check: fabricate a way to hook an air compressor to the turbo inlet so I can pressurize the full intake system and search for leaks at all the connections with soapy water.

If NOLA gets 8 psi like me, then there's a few possibilities:

1) Maybe there's a 1 psi pressure drop across the throttle body. Snarf's wastegate boost source is downstream of the throttle body. Mine is upstream of the throttle body, and NOLA will be duplicating my setup. If there's a pressure drop across the throttle body, then the downstream boost source will result in more boost in the intake manifold. I could test this easily by temporarily rearranging things so that my wastegate is hooked up similar to Snarf's.

2) Maybe Snarf has too much boost. I had about 1 psi extra boost with stage one, which I suspect was caused by a mangled o-ring on one of the fittings for the boost sensing line for the wastegate. If the test for option 1 above fails, then I would as Snarf to double check that all his wastegate boost sensing line connections are tight.

3) Maybe NOLA and I BOTH have boost leaks. If tests for option 1 and 2 both fail, then I'll work on a boost leak test.


If everything checks out and it turns out there really is a wide normal variation in boost across different installs, then a simple manual boost controller could be used to get a lower boost system up to 9 psi. They basically introduce a controlled leak into the wastegate boost sensing line to trick the wastegate into "seeing" less boost so that it opens later and at a higher actual intake manifold boost level.

[jeepsking]

Jeff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have a question related to the AFR sensor. Where is the best place to install it in this setup.

[UselessPickles]

From searching, it seems like a general guideline for wideband AFR sensor location is that it should be after the turbo to avoid exposing the sensor to the high exhaust temps before the turbo. Another general guideline is that you should avoid mounting it too far downstream because it takes time for exhaust to travel through the pipes, and you want as little lag as possible between exhaust exiting the engine and causing a reading on the sensor.

If I were to add a AFR sensor, I would probably put it on the downpipe, after the downward bend, so that the wiring could be routed up between the alternator and throttle body. Basically, somewhere on the part of the downpipe that is visible from above, to the right of the downward bend that is right in front of the alternator:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/under_hood_top.jpg


Just find a spot that fits well, lets you route the wiring nicely, and don't mount it horizontal or below horizontal:

http://www.rx7club.com/attachments/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/364925d1256453753-innovate-wideband-setup-wideband_mounting.jpg

[jeepsking]

Thanks Jeff. That really helps. I will be installing my kit next week. Hope so.

[jeepsking]

Just gone through AEM wide band instructions and it clearly states that the sensor must be fitted at leat 18" after the turbo or 36" in extreme conditions. When i measured the distance 18" it exactly falls where the waste gate throw out connect ed to the down pipe. I believe this might give also a false reading. In this condition the better way is to install it after the flexible down pipe. Just sharing a point of view.

[UselessPickles]

That makes sense. A good reminder to always read instructions and not just blindly trust what you saw on the internet from a non-official source:)

[UselessPickles]

I reconfigured my vacuum/boost lines today so that my wastegate is hooked up to the intake manifold like the official Prodigy setup. I'm still getting 8 psi, so there is not a 1 psi drop across the throttle body to explain my 8 psi vs Snarf's 9 psi. Now I'm just waiting for NOLA's results after he sets up his wastegate properly.

One more piece of the puzzle. I'll be switching back to my setup, now that I got that info.

[UselessPickles]

Congrats to NOLA for getting his wastegate setup properly for stage 2 today! He has joined the the 8.0-8.2 psi club with me and the official Prodigy website claim of 8.2 psi: https://www.prodigyperformance.com/3-6l-jeep-wrangler-turbo-kit/

Snarf - I'm starting to think your 9 psi is an indication of a problem. Here's some things to check for:

Leaks in the boost sensing line for the wastegate (along with any other vacuum hoses that it is teed into). Any leak, anywhere in that system of hoses that all hooks into the same small port on the intake manifold, could cause a false low pressure reading to the wastegate, which would allow higher than intended boost levels in the manifold.
Check for any cracks/damage to the hoses.
Check the ends of all hoses for damage, make sure they are pushed on the hose fittings fully, and securely zip-tied.
Also check the banjo bolt for the barbed hose fitting on the wastegate to make sure it is tight.

The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of 8.2 psi being the true expected boost level of stage 2. I was told, however, that the tune is designed to handle up to 9.2 psi. I think I'll ask for Prodigy's opinion on using a manual boost controller to get the full 9.2 psi boost: http://www.grimmspeed.com/manual-boost-controller/

[NOLAjeeper]

Congrats to NOLA for getting his wastegate setup properly for stage 2 today! He has joined the the 8.0-8.2 psi club with me and the official Prodigy website claim of 8.2 psi: https://www.prodigyperformance.com/3-6l-jeep-wrangler-turbo-kit/

Snarf - I'm starting to think your 9 psi is an indication of a problem. Here's some things to check for:

Leaks in the boost sensing line for the wastegate (along with any other vacuum hoses that it is teed into). Any leak, anywhere in that system of hoses that all hooks into the same small port on the intake manifold, could cause a false low pressure reading to the wastegate, which would allow higher than intended boost levels in the manifold.
Check for any cracks/damage to the hoses.
Check the ends of all hoses for damage, make sure they are pushed on the hose fittings fully, and securely zip-tied.
Also check the banjo bolt for the barbed hose fitting on the wastegate to make sure it is tight.

The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of 8.2 psi being the true expected boost level of stage 2. I was told, however, that the tune is designed to handle up to 9.2 psi. I think I'll ask for Prodigy's opinion on using a manual boost controller to get the full 9.2 psi boost: http://www.grimmspeed.com/manual-boost-controller/

Woot woot! Thanks Jeff for all the info on this and guiding me in the right direction!

[Snarf77]

]

Snarf - I'm starting to think your 9 psi is an indication of a problem. Here's some things to check for:

Leaks in the boost sensing line for the wastegate (along with any other vacuum hoses that it is teed into). Any leak, anywhere in that system of hoses that all hooks into the same small port on the intake manifold, could cause a false low pressure reading to the wastegate, which would allow higher than intended boost levels in the manifold.
Check for any cracks/damage to the hoses.
Check the ends of all hoses for damage, make sure they are pushed on the hose fittings fully, and securely zip-tied.
Also check the banjo bolt for the barbed hose fitting on the wastegate to make sure it is tight.

The evidence seems to be stacking up in favor of 8.2 psi being the true expected boost level of stage 2. I was told, however, that the tune is designed to handle up to 9.2 psi. I think I'll ask for Prodigy's opinion on using a manual boost controller to get the full 9.2 psi boost: http://www.grimmspeed.com/manual-boost-controller/

I got a new (custom) tune in my email this morning. I'll first add the tune tonight and take her for a spin and probably run a few logs for the record. While I like to think my extra .8 pounds of boost is due to my sheer awesomeness willing the jeep to propel forward, its probably wise to eliminate other possibilities. It didn't leak when I was smoke testing the system two months ago, but it can't hurt to go through it again.

Pickles - keep up the great posts. These are all good ideas and its really helpful to the crew.

[UselessPickles]

I got a new (custom) tune in my email this morning. I'll first add the tune tonight and take her for a spin and probably run a few logs for the record.

Don't form a final opinion of the new tune until you drive several days. Every time a new tune is written, the long-term fuel trims in the computer are cleared out. It takes a while for the computer to adjust the trims again, and the result can be that it drives quite a bit differently a week later than it did the first day with a new tune.

[Snarf77]

Don't form a final opinion of the new tune until you drive several days. Every time a new tune is written, the long-term fuel trims in the computer are cleared out. It takes a while for the computer to adjust the trims again, and the result can be that it drives quite a bit differently a week later than it did the first day with a new tune.

I just drove for about 20 minutes on the new tune and its driving well. Yes, this is without several days of driving. I took logs which will be provided to Prodigy to compare with my last tune's logs. I will say this though, I've have loaded a couple tunes thus far and none were this good out of the package.

I will monitor and re-log after about a week's worth of driving to see if the tune's drive-ability has changed. Either way, Prodigy was pretty responsive in getting this back to me with my specific topics addressed. I will keep everyone updated.

[UselessPickles]

I got a new custom tune from Prodigy today. So far, it's a HUGE improvement in driveability below 2500 rpm. Now I just hope it remains this good as the computer builds up its fuel trims over the next week or so. I did still come across some imperfections, but they seem small compared to the issues that were fixed with this latest tune. This is promising. A future tune approaching perfection now seems feasible.

[NOLAjeeper]

I got a new custom tune from Prodigy today. So far, it's a HUGE improvement in driveability below 2500 rpm. Now I just hope it remains this good as the computer builds up its fuel trims over the next week or so. I did still come across some imperfections, but they seem small compared to the issues that were fixed with this latest tune. This is promising. A future tune approaching perfection now seems feasible.

Jeff, i just sent you and email with my most recent data log. Glad your custom tune is working out for you! Hopefully they can get my tune perfected.

[2k13jk]

I still dont under stand why you guys are messing with 'canned' tunes still. when i installed my ripp kit my jk ran decent for a 'canned' but didnt feel like all the power was there. I payed a local tuner to do dyno pulls and custom tune the ecu for optimal air fuel and timing that way i made 344 whp on 8lbs of boost and im still on a safe tune. You guys keep complaining that the tunes are a hit and miss go get a custom tune from a local reputable tuner. It will save alot of time and frustration dealing with your truck running like crap. One thing you have to realize is not every jeep is the same when tuned different sea levels different engine loads auto vs manual gears tires they can only tune one jeep save the tune then send it out for there customers. Some of your trucks are different and should be specifically tuned for your vehicle and setup

[UselessPickles]

I still dont under stand why you guys are messing with 'canned' tunes still.

Because the "canned" tune from Prodigy is intended to be good, and this is supposed to be a complete kit that does not require additional custom tuning.

Because I don't have money to spend on a custom tune from a local tuner. I'm saving for wheels and tires and gears and... etc.

Because Prodigy will continue to improve the tune over time, and those improvements are available to me for free, rather than requiring me to spend more money on additional dyno/tuning time at a local shop if I come across something that needs some more fine-tuning.

Because a custom tune done by a local shop in a day or two cannot possibly be calibrated to handle variations in temperature, humidity, elevation, gears, tire size, etc. It will only be a fairly quick tune to handle the current configuration of my Jeep well. I don't want to have to pay for a new custom tune when I upgrade tires/gears/etc. I also want my Jeep to run flawlessly if I take a trip to another part of the country with much different elevation, etc.

Because Prodigy is much less likely to support any future issues I run into if I'm running a non-standard tune. I don't want to get into a situation where Prodigy blames the tune for a problem, then I have to work it out with the shop that built my tune.

Because Prodigy is building its tunes based on feedback from many people that drive in different ways, with different mods, in different environments, to build up an OEM-level tune that handles all the different altitudes, engine loads due to different tires/gears etc. The feedback I provide will make the tune better for many other people at no cost to them. The feedback that other people provide will improve things for me that I didn't even identify as something needing improvement, at no cost to me.

The stock tune for the Jeep works for everyone. You don't have to take your brand new Jeep off the lot straight to a tuner to get it custom tuned for local conditions, or whenever you change tires/gears. A tune CAN be built that works very well for everyone. It's just a lot more effort to get all the parameters and lookup tables properly calibrated so that the correct outcome is calculated under varying conditions.

A tune from a local shop may be the quickest route to a good tune right now, but in the long run, the tune from Prodigy should overall better, fine-tuned, more versatile (tolerant to changes), and well-supported by people that know this particular turbo system inside and out.

[2k13jk]

The custom tune from a tuner is a one time tune the on board ecu accounts for out side weather changes plus the pentastar is tuned off of one sensor so a custom will be most benificial to any setup