Magnuson Supercharger Clean Up

[gbaumann]

I started a blog which I am moving to a thread here. So here goes.

[gbaumann]

I'm no Usless Pickles or JeepLab so please forgive my poor posting skills. I have a 2013 JKU with 3.6 Pentastar and a Magnuson Supercharger. I've been running it for about 10k miles and I have been experiencing some of the "tune" issues that others here have experienced too. I'm going to start working through the issues and hope to blog the process here.

To start with I'm going to clean up the PCV system. Why, because recently I discovered that the vacuum from the s/c is strong enough to collapse the PVC hose from the install kit. At the same time the make-up air elbow that connects the make-up air line to the valve cover is easily kinked when installed per instructions. The kink can (and likely does) limit make-up air. When the PCV system doesn't function properly and/or flow freely the intake air-fuel charge becomes inconsistent which would make a tuner's job quite difficult.

Just as important as making the system work right is enhancing it. I'm going to install a "catch can" which most of you are probably familiar with. The catch can is designed to remove oil from the vented crankcase gases so that the oil doesn't get routed through the $6k supercharger I bought. Oil in the PCV suction line will again, alter the air-fuel mix and make a tuner's job difficult. It will also settle on parts and gunk them up.

After I get the PCV system improved I'm headed to a tuner for a dyno pull and graphing - then a custom tune - then a final dyno run and results graph for comparison.

[gbaumann]

To start with here is a picture of the lines I'm going to change.

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The catch can I purchased is from Billet Technologies.

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I am planning on using 1/2 inch stainless tubing and hard fittings like this next picture. I will use flexible terminations at the block and inline as needed to keep the overall installation flexible for everyday driving wile eliminating as much variation in PCV flow.

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[gbaumann]

I'm going to custom bend the tubing and bead or flair the ends as needed. The tools I'll use are a Rigid tubing bender:

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And an Aircraft Tool Supply tube beading set:

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[gbaumann]

BTW, if you are skeptical about the need for a catch can just remember that we are running 5W20 fully synthetic (I hope!) motor oil which is very easily picked up and moved around.

Here's pic of a working can:

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I, for one, don't want the risk or reality that oil is passing into my supercharger!

[JeepLab]

This is a good one. I saw the blog and was concerned people would miss it. Anyone with an SC should read this thread.

Im going to check my own set up, and install a simliar system.

gbaumann, how much was the catch?

[gbaumann]

Here's my truck.

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[gbaumann]

All in with shipping $155.00 from Billet Technology. http://billettechnology.com/bt/news/the-original-catch-can/

[gbaumann]

This is a good one. I saw the blog and was concerned people would miss it. Anyone with an SC should read this thread.

Im going to check my own set up, and install a simliar system.

gbaumann, how much was the catch?


All in with shipping $155.00 from Billet Technology. http://billettechnology.com/bt/news/...nal-catch-can/

[Pznivy]

Where does the caught oil go? does it drain back into the pan?

[Yoinkers]

So many supercharged jeeps on the road, what happens when this gets back into the SC?

wear?

[gbaumann]

Where does the caught oil go? does it drain back into the pan?

You throw the caught oil away with your waste oil. I'm guessing the interval will be with each oil change for me.

[gbaumann]

So many supercharged jeeps on the road, what happens when this gets back into the SC?

wear?

The genesis of the PCV system we all have is concern for the environment. Crankcase gasses used to vent to the environment which put hydrocarbons in the atmosphere. The oil from the vapor used to drip down a tube to the road below. Modern systems are specifically designed to send the crankcase gasses and oil back through the engine to burn them and reduce direct emissions.

So to answer your question, yes - wear and deposits on sensitive compressor rotors, altered air/fuel charge, parties through the system. No matter what's in the PCV line we don't want it in our forced induction motors.

[JeepLab]

Im about to strip my SC to install the high alt pulley. Im going to take it apart and look inside. Will report back.

[gbaumann]

Im about to strip my SC to install the high alt pulley. Im going to take it apart and look inside. Will report back.

I wouldn't open up a supercharger unless you need to open it to change the pulley. Disconnect your PCV tube from the supercharger and look inside. Is it dry? Mine isn't. After 10k miles I got a finger coated with oil from inside the tube. I'll pull my PCV tube and see if I can get a good pic of what it looks like.

[gbaumann]

Here's a good white paper on PCV oil separation.

http://www.conceptualpolymer.com/PCV%20Line%20Oil%20Removal%20102.pdf

[gbaumann]

So many supercharged jeeps on the road, what happens when this gets back into the SC?

wear?

I found this in a fourm on supercharged mustangs.

One additional part I would like to mention here that is not required but certainly recommended by most is the oil separator. Depending on the brand you choose, this item will be important very early in the assembly process. An oil separator simply removes any oil from the PCV hose prior to entering the plenum. When the engine is under boost, the SC will actually suck oil through the PCV and draw it into the SC and then into intercooler (IC) itself. Over time, the oil clogs up the vents on the IC reducing its effectiveness…not to mention making a big mess inside the plenum, SC, and the IC. The two pics below show a clean IC vs. an oil-soaked IC.

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[FLIPmeOVER]

This is bad news bears. how do you take your intercooler apart to find out ? and then do you take the plenum apart?

what happens if oil was to get into the engine?

[gbaumann]

This is bad news bears. how do you take your intercooler apart to find out ? and then do you take the plenum apart?

what happens if oil was to get into the engine?

Don't take your intercooler apart. I doubt any Magnuson S/C has been on the road long enough to foul the intercooler with oil. My project here is to jump ahead of that issue and improve air-fuel, vacuum and PCV in prep for a custom tune.

PCV is specifically designed TO introduce oil from crankcase gases into the engine and burn it to eliminate the emissions from the environment. It works fine for naturally aspirated engines. But we've added forced induction and larger injectors. We need to run 93 octane fuel at the high cylinder pressures that come with S/C or turbo boost. Why 93 octane? Because there isn't a higher octane out there. When under boost I am guessing that intake vacuum increases above stock. The increased vacuum likely exceeds the PCV system design and draws more oil than intended. The increased crankcase gasses and oil affect air-fuel mix and thus octane.

[Pznivy]

this would be a good video. Show the danger, then the correction.

Awsome thread. for a problem people dont know they have.

Is this issue just magnuson? or is it an inherent problem with all Superchargers. is the turbo immune?

[2k13jk]

does anybody know how to properly install a oil catch can

[gbaumann]

this would be a good video. Show the danger, then the correction.

Awsome thread. for a problem people dont know they have.

Is this issue just magnuson? or is it an inherent problem with all Superchargers. is the turbo immune?

I will be posting my fabrication and install. I believe the issue applies to any motor with forced induction because the boost in manifold pressure increases PCV vacuum which increases crankcase vapor pickup.

[gbaumann]

does anybody know how to properly install a oil catch can

I'm no expert but will post my fab and install and advise on the choices I make on materials, mounting location, hardware, techniques and such. I hope to have lots of pics and get feedback from you all as I go. First step is to get my catch can which seems to have been misdelivered by USPS. I'm tracking it down. I have 1/2 in. stainless tubing and tools pulled together. I need the can and a few stainless compression fittings. I hope to start this weekend.

[gbaumann]

OK. My catch can arrived! Many thanks to BilletTechnology.com for overnight delivery of a replacement for the can that was lost in the mail. Great customer service!

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I am planning on using hard lines rather than hoses. But the hoses come with the can no matter what and you can never have enough spare parts in the shop.

[gbaumann]

Here is the 1/2 O.D stainless steel tubing that I purchased from www.onlinemetalsupply.com.

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[gbaumann]

Next is out to the truck to pick a location for the can. Billet Technology doesn't make a kit specifically for the JK so I purchased their "fender mount" kit which has the swivel and bolt. I figure it will afford me the most options. Also, most catch cans are attached to the engine somewhere near the intake. It's OK to do this but there is a better practice. It is best to mount a catch can as far from heat as possible so that vapors will condense on the way to the can. If you put the can in a really hot location more oil may stay in the gasses. I know that the real difference in temperature under the hood is probably one degree or two but I'm going to try to be as picky as I can.

[gbaumann]

Here's a picture of the mounting option I chose.

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It's really tight under the hood. So the best location I can find is to the left of the brake master cylinder. It's about as cool a location as I can expect. Looks like there's enough room to service the can.

[gbaumann]

Yep. Looking good.

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[gbaumann]

But . . . the horn is in the way so the horn will have to be relocated. Here are the factory horn mounting parts. I'll see if I can re-use them or reconfigure to get the horn out of the way.

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[gbaumann]

Not much wire here.

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[gbaumann]

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Here's what it looks like from above.

[Pznivy]

Awsome thread. You are toing to change to stainless tube for everything?

[JeepLab]

Keep it coming. Great info.

Im on the edge of my seat. Your going to bend that stainless pipe?

[gbaumann]

Keep it coming. Great info.

Im on the edge of my seat. Your going to bend that stainless pipe?

Yes. I'm going to bend the stainless tubing myself. I'll post pics of the process.

[gbaumann]

OK. I was able to get back at it today. First step - relocate the horn. The horn bracket (in an earlier picture) is mounted to the inside of the driver's side fender. Just forward of the mounting stud is another stud with a ground. I'm going to swap the ground to the original horn location, modify the horn mount bracket and relocate it to the forward stud.

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[gbaumann]

The final mods to the horn bracket took a few trials (and errors). But ultimately this is how it went. You need to remove a portion (shown), re-bend the tab that holds the bracket straight and re-bend the end to turn the horn mounting hole 90 degrees. I was tempted to just cut the support tab off but thought better of it because it really does do a job so I kept it.

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Like so:

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Final shape:

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[gbaumann]

Before mounting the horn I decided to move the windshield washer hoses downward so they would more easily clear the can. To do this I had to loosen the ABS platform bolt that attaches to the top of the fender. With this bolt out I was able to just move the washer hoses down to a clear area.

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[gbaumann]

And the horn goes into it's new location. I could have mounted the horn much lower into the fender well. But I figured "high is dry" should be my philosophy under the hood.

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[gbaumann]

Next I mounted the catch can. I removed the bracket from the can. I used the bracket and a center punch to drill a pilot hole for the bolt location. Then I used a step-drill to enlarge the hole in the sheet metal to fit the mounting bracket for the catch can. All of this will be de-mounted and painted or treated before I'm finally finished. First, however, I want to get it all to fit and work.

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[gbaumann]

And the catch can finally goes in.

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[gbaumann]

I didn't have time to plumb the PCV to the can. But I did have time to plumb the make-up air line. The make-up air runs from the CAI (in my case an AFE) to the driver's (left) side valve cover (in the very, very, very tightest spot imaginable). So I took out the plastic line and long hose and made a two piece stainless steel 1/2 inch O.D. line. I needed to make it in two pieces because I couldn't snake a single hard line into place.

Here's another picture of the tubing bender I used.

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It makes bends like this, which happens to be one of the finished section of new line:

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In this picture we are "beading" the end of the pipe to create the bump that holds hose with a clamp.

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Here's a closer pic of the tube with beaded end:

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[gbaumann]

Here are pics of the make-up air line installed:

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But it's all good. . .

[gbaumann]

Oh, and I did make sure I can service the can where it is mounted:

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[gbaumann]

I plan on getting back to the install of my catch can tomorrow (and hopefully finishing it). I may make a change to the system. I may eliminate the make-up air line I did last weekend. I ordered a K&N filter specifically designed to be used as a direct vent filter. If I go that route then I can eliminate all of the tubing between the CAI and the crankcase. The make-up air will go straight in to reduce any pressure differential between vacuum and make-up sides of the PCV system. We'll see. I'll test both set-ups and report back.

[gbaumann]

In the meantime I've also started to clean up other aspects of my S/C install and I'm pleased to report some positive results. First, I wanted to make sure that my gear ratio and spedo are programmed absolutely spot on. I never went back and checked after loading the tune that came from Magnuson. I asked and was told that there is no interaction between the new "tune" and the gear/tire values previously flashed into the PCM. Not wanting to leave any stone unturned, I got out my trusty ProCal from AEV and re-flashed my gears for 4.10 and re-flashed my tires. Turns out my prior tire parameter had my spedo off by about five mph. I called AEV and they told me that I have to physically measure my tire and not rely on converting the metric 317 70 R17 into a diameter. I measured, corrected and now my spedo is spot on. While I had my ProCal out I decided to try something, again just to try to eliminate all possible performance issues before shelling out for dyno tuning.

What I did was to un-marry and re-marry my accelerator to my PCM. To do this (and don't if you don't have to), I intentionally performed the joining sequence wrong, disconnected the ProCal and started the truck. As expected, no throttle response. Then I performed the sequence correctly and re-joined the accelerator to the PCM. Well, call me crazy, but the truck works better. Perhaps the re-joining cleared any adaptive settings in the PCM or I don't know but throttle response is different now. It's driving much more like you'd expect. When I press on the gas power kicks in and I don't have to bury my foot to the floor. Since I'm not pressing down so far I'm not downshifting so quickly. Much more enjoyable experience!

BTW - I can now report with confidence after re-calibrating and checking and checking again that I'm turning +/- 2.800 rpm at 80mph.

[2k13jk]

I got my oil catch can hooked up today i bought a vsm racing vented one form florida 80 bucks shipped install was cake you will be surprised how much oil the pentastar sucks thru the pcv

[gbaumann]

I got my oil catch can hooked up today i bought a vsm racing vented one form florida 80 bucks shipped install was cake you will be surprised how much oil the pentastar sucks thru the pcv

I'm not surprised at all! Can you post a pic? Is the VSM specific to Pentastar or Jeeps?

[2k13jk]

The one i bought is not vehicle or engine specific it was 80 bucks definately one of the more expensive catch cans. ill post pics once i get near my jeep again

[gbaumann]

The one i bought is not vehicle or engine specific it was 80 bucks definately one of the more expensive catch cans. ill post pics once i get near my jeep again

Awesome. Can't wait to see what you catch. I finished my install today.

[gbaumann]

I fabricated two new hard lines to take the pcv from the right side valve cover (very back of it) to the catch can and then from the can to the supercharger lnlet.

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The above line goes from the motor to the catch can.

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This one goes from the can to the supercharger

[gbaumann]

After fabricating the tubes each was washed out with hot soapy water and then blown dry with an air compressor. The lines run behind the supercharger and along the firewall. The last few inches is rubber hose and clamps.

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Next we'll see what we "catch." I post pics in a few days/week after the can has had time to work.

[Yoinkers]

is there a chance it wont catch anything?

I was under the impression that its a vapor, and if you drive long distance, it wont condense, but running to the grocery store it will.

[gbaumann]

is there a chance it wont catch anything?

I was under the impression that its a vapor, and if you drive long distance, it wont condense, but running to the grocery store it will.

We'll see. It's not all vapor. Oil droplets get caught up in the vacuum and sucked through the line. The Pentastars do have a line of defense from the factory. there is a centrifuge driven by the right side cams. As it spins it separates oil from the vapor. But its not that effective and not designed for forced induction. Let's see what a week of driving gets us?

[gbaumann]

Sorry, I should have drawn the arrows the way the PCV flows like this.

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[gbaumann]

I RECEIVED INFORMATION FROM MAGNUSON TODAY THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR MAG OWNERS!! For those of us having the surging issue Magnuson has a new tune that improves things. To get the new tune you need to install some new parts. I just spoke with sales and gave them my info. The customer service/tech folks are going to call me to give me details on what parts are coming and what the procedures are. I's say that this is included in "Magnuson Supercharger Clean-up" so I'll be posting progress, pics and results. Of course, I plan on updating hardware and software per Magnuson before I head for a dyno and a custom tune.

BTW - drive-ability has improved with the catch can installed.

[gbaumann]

Spoke with Magnuson again today. The update to the SC is a new bypass actuator with a lighter spring that operates more consistently. Then there's a new tune that addresses air/fuel to correct the surging. Parts are supposed to be on the way to me overnight and I will try to install tomorrow evening. If not, then Thursday.

[FLIPmeOVER]

has mag put up press release? or are you breaking new ground on this?

[gbaumann]

has mag put up press release? or are you breaking new ground on this?

No press release that I've seen. I looked all over. I have been checking periodically at Magnuson for updates. I heard they stopped selling over the summer and then started again. So, I figured they must have made a breakthrough. When I check back I learned that prior purchasers will get updated bypass under warranty and then a new tune. I'm posting to try to her the word out.

[bo9roadking]

Sorry if this is a thread hijack. I'm replying because you mentioned the new hardware to eliminate surging. I've had the Magnuson on my 3.6 for about 3 weeks. I ordered it the end of June and didn't receive it until about 3 weeks ago because I was waiting for Magnuson to start shipping them out again. I guess I have the new lighter spring and tune because I don't have any surging.

I still have problems with the auto transmission shifts though. The transmission tends to stay in gear longer and my rpms climb higher before it shifts. I can force an up shift by lifting off the throttle or manually shifting. It is livable, but can be annoying. My only real complaint is that I was expecting the extra torque to allow me to stay in overdrive for longer periods of time on the highway instead of downshifting. The opposite has actually happened.

When I'm going up small inclines where my transmission stayed in overdrive at about 65 mph prior to the supercharger install, now it drops down to 4th and stays in 4th for quite a while unless I force it into overdrive. I seem to be fighting with the transmission because it keeps dropping into 4th. Magnuson says Diablo is still working on trying to get the auto transmission to shift better. I understand that my jeep is heavier and bigger than their test jeeps, so I expected some issues, but I was hoping the extra torque would push me into my seat and hold a gear instead of downshifting one or two gears before it started taking off.

Here is my 2012 Jeep on 40's with 5.13 gears, D60 front axle and D80 rear axle.
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[JeepLab]

Welcome Bo9roadking!

Hijack any thread you want buddy! We are happy to have you.

[gbaumann]

Welcome Bo9roadking! Excellent taste in color. Awesome truck! You're not hijacking at all. This thread us about cleaning up a Magnuson SC install and every bit of information counts. We are all in this together. Unfortunately don't hold your breath too long for a Diablosport transmission update. The Chrysler PCM trans side is said to be impossibly encrypted. I've spoken with Magnuson and Diablo. They aren't that far along. But they are working on it. I've started to look into upgrading the trans myself and I found a credible shop in OH that does performance conversions on the NAG-1 trans that we have. Costs about $5,000 but won't change the shift points which is what we are looking for. It will sharpen shifts and change torque converter to make better use of increased torque and HP from the supercharger. The upgrade significantly increases the input torque tolerance from 430 ft.lbs. to 1,100 ft.lbs. It's a major rebuild and upgrade of many parts inside the trans. I'm holding off for now but promised Magnuson that I will share my process and results should I decide to do it.

[bo9roadking]

Welcome Bo9roadking!

Hijack any thread you want buddy! We are happy to have you.


Welcome Bo9roadking! Excellent taste in color. Awesome truck! You're not hijacking at all. This thread us about cleaning up a Magnuson SC install and every bit of information counts. We are all in this together. Unfortunately don't hold your breath too long for a Diablosport transmission update. The Chrysler PCM trans side is said to be impossibly encrypted. I've spoken with Magnuson and Diablo. They aren't that far along. But they are working on it. I've started to look into upgrading the trans myself and I found a credible shop in OH that does performance conversions on the NAG-1 trans that we have. Costs about $5,000 but won't change the shift points which is what we are looking for. It will sharpen shifts and change torque converter to make better use of increased torque and HP from the supercharger. The upgrade significantly increases the input torque tolerance from 430 ft.lbs. to 1,100 ft.lbs. It's a major rebuild and upgrade of many parts inside the trans. I'm holding off for now but promised Magnuson that I will share my process and results should I decide to do it.

Thanks for the welcome. I'm definitely interested to hear about beefing up the transmission. I'm wondering if changing the torque converter would improve shifting? It would make sense, but adding $5k for the transmission rebuild on top of the SC purchase would put me half way to the cost of a V8 install.

I'll probably hold off on throwing more money at the SC and see if Magnuson and Diablo make any progress with the transmission tuning. I'm puzzled though about the transmission shifts because Superchips claims that they can firm up the transmission shifts with their TrailDash tuner. If Superchips can do it, why can't Diablo? My jeep is still drivable, just not as civil on the highway because the transmission doesn't want to stay in overdrive.

[gbaumann]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm definitely interested to hear about beefing up the transmission. I'm wondering if changing the torque converter would improve shifting? It would make sense, but adding $5k for the transmission rebuild on top of the SC purchase would put me half way to the cost of a V8 install.

I'll probably hold off on throwing more money at the SC and see if Magnuson and Diablo make any progress with the transmission tuning. I'm puzzled though about the transmission shifts because Superchips claims that they can firm up the transmission shifts with their TrailDash tuner. If Superchips can do it, why can't Diablo? My jeep is still drivable, just not as civil on the highway because the transmission doesn't want to stay in overdrive.

I think the TrailDash Tuner only works on '07 - '10 JKs which have a different trans.

[Timmy]

shop in OH that does performance conversions on the NAG-1 trans that we have. Costs about $5,000 but won't change the shift points which is what we are looking

Dang, $5k? What's the cost to convert it to a manual transmission and drive it like a real man? (snicker, snicker... Just kidding, I couldn't resist. Your 40" rig is twice the beast of mine, it makes mine whimper with jealousy.)

[gbaumann]

OK. So parts for SC update arrived from Magnuson today.

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and my workday pretty much ended at that time.

[gbaumann]

Installed the new bypass actuator and flashed the truck with Mag's new tune.

Result: Too early to tell. Only put about 20 miles on her. Felt like there was an improvement in surging. That's very positive. On the other hand, transmission behavior seems to have gone haywire. While shifting wasn't ideal before it may have gotten worse. She really won't stay in gear going up hill. Just like Bo9roadking says above the truck doesn't like O.D. And it doesn't want to accelerate in 4th gear at all. Bo9 - I'm not sure it's your 40s and heavy Dana axles. I have 4.10 gears, 35s and much lighter axles. Same symptoms.

Oh well. Still cleaning things up. And BTW I have a picture of my catch can results. I'll post it.

[gbaumann]

is there a chance it wont catch anything?

I was under the impression that its a vapor, and if you drive long distance, it wont condense, but running to the grocery store it will.

Well Yoinkers, here's our answer. After only 200 miles of driving I've "caught" oil. I suspect the catch can will collect quite a bit of oil between changes. And remember, if it's not going in the can it's going int the intake!

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[gbaumann]

Dang, $5k? What's the cost to convert it to a manual transmission and drive it like a real man? (snicker, snicker... Just kidding, I couldn't resist. Your 40" rig is twice the beast of mine, it makes mine whimper with jealousy.)

Timmy, I agree. For the price I would seriously considering swapping in a manual. On a certain level that would be throwing in the towel and giving in. So, now I'm on a mission. My efforts are about cleaning up the issues with a Magnuson install. I expect I'll be pleased with the new bypass and tune file. The catch can is cleaning up the air/fuel charge. Now on to the transmission. . .

[gbaumann]

And you know. . .I occurs to me that when someone changes the 3.6 for a 5.7 or 6.4 hemi and buys the kit from AEV they get an entirely new PCM but they keep their original transmission. I would think that the trans get a brain washing by the new PCM to marry it up to the hemi. So someone, somewhere, ourtside of Chrysler has the code and knows how to tune the NAG-1 trans.

[bo9roadking]

Thanks for adding the new information using the new actuator. Sorry to hear that you are having the same issues with the auto that I'm experiencing. It is frustrating that the transmission keeps downshifting to go up hills even on small inclines. It acts like I have less power than stock until the boost kicks in. When the boost kicks in, the additional power causes my transmission to think that I've pressed the throttle almost to the floor for passing someone even though I haven't. The transmission drops into 4th and sometimes into 3rd. At least I know it isn't the weight of my jeep causing the transmission to act up. Once Magnuson/Diablo gets this figured out, the fix should work for my heavy jeep too.

Good point about the Hemi upgrades using the same auto transmission. The transmission can handle the additional power and shifts normally, so there has to be something that is being overlooked when installing a supercharger. I wonder if the RIPP owners are having similar issues on their jeeps?

[2k13jk]

This is why i bought a manual way less headaches on a serious note tho instead of paying 5k to upgrade a light duty tranny why not swap in a 4l80e chevy tranny with a stand alone and be able to have a meduim to heavy duty auto with the option to build and tune to any extent

[JeepLab]

I ordered my catch can today.

[gbaumann]

Thanks for adding the new information using the new actuator. Sorry to hear that you are having the same issues with the auto that I'm experiencing. It is frustrating that the transmission keeps downshifting to go up hills even on small inclines. It acts like I have less power than stock until the boost kicks in. When the boost kicks in, the additional power causes my transmission to think that I've pressed the throttle almost to the floor for passing someone even though I haven't. The transmission drops into 4th and sometimes into 3rd. At least I know it isn't the weight of my jeep causing the transmission to act up. Once Magnuson/Diablo gets this figured out, the fix should work for my heavy jeep too.

Good point about the Hemi upgrades using the same auto transmission. The transmission can handle the additional power and shifts normally, so there has to be something that is being overlooked when installing a supercharger. I wonder if the RIPP owners are having similar issues on their jeeps?

So I put 100 miles or so on with the new MAG SC update. My driving experience is identical to Bo9roadking's. What we need is to remap our shift points and alter torque management settings. That said, i have now spent a good 20 hours or so reading everything I can get my hands on about the history, evolution and adaptation of the NAG-1, W5A580, MB 722.6 (all the same) trans that we have. Good news is we have a world class five speed auto! Bad news is it was designed by Mercedes Benz so it's controlled by a TCU from Siemens VDO in Germany. Siemens locks their code up tighter than gold in Fort Knox!

Our transmissions can handle our application no problem. Same gear box appears in Porsche tiptronic brand behind high horsepower/torque engines. Same gearbox is behind some of AMG's most powerful Benz engines. Same goes for Mopar. NAG-1 is right now on the strip running 9 second quarter miles in Challengers.

So far the only reasonably priced solution I can find is a stand-alone trans controller from Powertrain Control Systems (PCS). I do not, however, know if the ECU/TCU combo that make up the Chrysler PCM (powertrain control module) can live with a stand alone unit in the mix. So research continues on how to reprogram the truck to believe its got a manual or to accept the data inputs from someone else's TCU. One nice potentially outstanding feature of the PCS unit is that it will hold two calibrations. For racers it's street/strip. For us it could easily be street/off road. I'll be calling them tomorrow.

[Timmy]

So I put 100 miles or so on with the new MAG SC update. My driving experience is identical to Bo9roadking's. What we need is to remap our shift points and alter torque management settings. That said, i have now spent a good 20 hours or so reading everything I can get my hands on about the history, evolution and adaptation of the NAG-1, W5A580, MB 722.6 (all the same) trans that we have. Good news is we have a world class five speed auto! Bad news is it was designed by Mercedes Benz so it's controlled by a TCU from Siemens VDO in Germany. Siemens locks their code up tighter than gold in Fort Knox!

Our transmissions can handle our application no problem. Same gear box appears in Porsche tiptronic brand behind high horsepower/torque engines. Same gearbox is behind some of AMG's most powerful Benz engines. Same goes for Mopar. NAG-1 is right now on the strip running 9 second quarter miles in Challengers.

So far the only reasonably priced solution I can find is a stand-alone trans controller from Powertrain Control Systems (PCS). I do not, however, know if the ECU/TCU combo that make up the Chrysler PCM (powertrain control module) can live with a stand alone unit in the mix. So research continues on how to reprogram the truck to believe its got a manual or to accept the data inputs from someone else's TCU. One nice potentially outstanding feature of the PCS unit is that it will hold two calibrations. For racers it's street/strip. For us it could easily be street/off road. I'll be calling them tomorrow.

Maybe a dumb question, but how is RIPP dealing with this? They seem to pride themselves on having a perfectly driveable vehicle, so certainly they have had to struggle with the exact same transmission and come out the other side with an answer. I really would look to RIPP and Magnuson for a solution and not go off track trying to find your own. They have just as much, if not more, of a vested interest in trying to get the transmission to work correctly as you guys do.

[gbaumann]

Maybe a dumb question, but how is RIPP dealing with this? They seem to pride themselves on having a perfectly driveable vehicle, so certainly they have had to struggle with the exact same transmission and come out the other side with an answer. I really would look to RIPP and Magnuson for a solution and not go off track trying to find your own. They have just as much, if not more, of a vested interest in trying to get the transmission to work correctly as you guys do.

I don't know how RIPP does it with the autos. I totally agree with you about Magnuson having a vested interest in a good result. We are just on different timetables. I want my truck to work. . . like now. Mag will be happy if my truck works. . . um. . . eventually. BTW i find that patience has an inverse relationship to purchase price. At six grand my clock runs kinda short.

Seriously though, I stay in touch with Magnuson and I share everything that I learn with them. They have been very responsive. In fact, just today I learned that there is a shop in Virginia called Arrington Performance that has proprietary software to calibrate our NAG-1 auto transmissions computers. I personally spoke with the calibration shop there and a tuner who said he can help. They don't get much 4WD business and don't see a broad market for Wrangler TCU calibration. I gave the information to Magnuson and asked if they'd ever heard of Arrington and whether or not Mag would consider teaming up with them to generate a solution for us. I'm waiting to hear back. But I wouldn't have found them without first speaking to the guys who make stand along TCUs who put me in touch with a shop in Washington State that specializes in stand along NAG-1 control. The Washington shop, Sound German Performance, talked to me for over 20 minutes (and we're not done speaking yet). At the end they told me about Arrington and said that us Jeep guys would probably be better with a shop that can get into the stock TCU and calibrate the trans. I was unaware that such capability exists. It may turn out to be a dead end.

I will stay in touch with Sound German Performance because they are working on a add-on TCU that can integrate with a factory TCU and perhaps sometime next year we auto trans guys may have the ability to select a trail calibration and really let the superchargers do their thing off road!

[bo9roadking]

Gbaughman it sounds like you have found some promising options for the auto. I like the idea of an add-on TCU that integrates with the factory TCU if it works. I want an Atlas 4 speed transfer case, but the factory TCU only supports one 4L gear ratio which means it only supports a 2 speed transfer case. If the add-on TCU would support a second gear ratio, I could opt for the 4 speed instead of the 2 speed transfer case. The transfer case is not happening this year, so I have time for the add-on TCU to get fully developed.

My main concern is getting the auto transmission to shift better and hold the overdrive gear on the highway. Thanks gbaughman for staying on top of this. I'm in agreement with you on wanting a solution for the auto now instead of some time in the future when Magnuson can fit jeep owners in their schedule. They never should have marketed this SC until the auto worked similar to stock. I'm going to search RIPP forum threads to see if the auto is resolved with the RIPP install or they are experiencing the same problem.

I still drive my jeep, but it is no longer my daily driver like it was prior to the SC install. Until my auto works better, I won't be driving it everyday and definitely not on the highway as often. I've had the SC installed for over 5 weeks and I still haven't received an update on when another tune might be coming out to solve the auto shifting issues.

I don't have a positive feeling on when the next tune will be available because when I bought the SC in June, Magnuson had stopped shipping them. I was told Magnuson was working with Diablo on a tune for the auto before they started shipping them out again and that it would be ready in about a week. I bought the SC based upon that information. Instead of calling after a week, I waited 2 weeks and called Magnuson to find out when the tune would be ready. I was told the tune was still in the works and it was going to take another week. After several more weeks passed, I called Magnuson again and was told a new tune was ready and they shipped my SC in September. The one week time line to work the new tune took more than 2 months.

I installed the SC with the tune and the auto never shifted the same after that. Magnuson has been good at replying to my emails, but they are at the mercy of Diablo to get the tune done and they don't have any updates on when the next tune will be available because they don't have control of tuning the auto's TCU. I know Magnuson will get it resolved, but nobody knows how long it will take.

I'm also wondering after gbaughman made the hardware changes with the bypass that were already installed on my SC, if the SC produces less power now or if the power doesn't start coming on until higher in the rpm range? Did the auto shift better prior to making the change to the bypass except for surging issues with the cruise control? I'd be willing to live with surging and not use my cruise control than live with no overdrive.

[gbaumann]

Gbaughman it sounds like you have found some promising options for the auto. I like the idea of an add-on TCU that integrates with the factory TCU if it works. I want an Atlas 4 speed transfer case, but the factory TCU only supports one 4L gear ratio which means it only supports a 2 speed transfer case. If the add-on TCU would support a second gear ratio, I could opt for the 4 speed instead of the 2 speed transfer case. The transfer case is not happening this year, so I have time for the add-on TCU to get fully developed.

My main concern is getting the auto transmission to shift better and hold the overdrive gear on the highway. Thanks gbaughman for staying on top of this. I'm in agreement with you on wanting a solution for the auto now instead of some time in the future when Magnuson can fit jeep owners in their schedule. They never should have marketed this SC until the auto worked similar to stock. I'm going to search RIPP forum threads to see if the auto is resolved with the RIPP install or they are experiencing the same problem.

I still drive my jeep, but it is no longer my daily driver like it was prior to the SC install. Until my auto works better, I won't be driving it everyday and definitely not on the highway as often. I've had the SC installed for over 5 weeks and I still haven't received an update on when another tune might be coming out to solve the auto shifting issues.

I don't have a positive feeling on when the next tune will be available because when I bought the SC in June, Magnuson had stopped shipping them. I was told Magnuson was working with Diablo on a tune for the auto before they started shipping them out again and that it would be ready in about a week. I bought the SC based upon that information. Instead of calling after a week, I waited 2 weeks and called Magnuson to find out when the tune would be ready. I was told the tune was still in the works and it was going to take another week. After several more weeks passed, I called Magnuson again and was told a new tune was ready and they shipped my SC in September. The one week time line to work the new tune took more than 2 months.

I installed the SC with the tune and the auto never shifted the same after that. Magnuson has been good at replying to my emails, but they are at the mercy of Diablo to get the tune done and they don't have any updates on when the next tune will be available because they don't have control of tuning the auto's TCU. I know Magnuson will get it resolved, but nobody knows how long it will take.

I'm also wondering after gbaughman made the hardware changes with the bypass that were already installed on my SC, if the SC produces less power now or if the power doesn't start coming on until higher in the rpm range? Did the auto shift better prior to making the change to the bypass except for surging issues with the cruise control? I'd be willing to live with surging and not use my cruise control than live with no overdrive.

Feel free, everyone, to call me Gary. (Or anything else you'd like.) When I made the hardware changes and installed the new tune my power started coming on higher in the RPM range as you surmise. Auto trans shifts worse. Surging is much, much better but not 100% gone. No word back from Magnuson. Does anyone know what manufacturer of our transmission control unit in the PCM? I need that info for Aringtron Performance and they may be able to help us remotely.

[2k13jk]

It really seems to me that magnuson released a kit that isnt ready to be released yet. Im not favoriting any kit just because i have the ripp kit, but it seems like they the most dialed in kit on the market for the 3.6 so far

[bo9roadking]

Feel free, everyone, to call me Gary. (Or anything else you'd like.) When I made the hardware changes and installed the new tune my power started coming on higher in the RPM range as you surmise. Auto trans shifts worse. Surging is much, much better but not 100% gone. No word back from Magnuson. Does anyone know what manufacturer of our transmission control unit in the PCM? I need that info for Aringtron Performance and they may be able to help us remotely.

Can't answer your question about who manufactures the auto TCU. It would be nice if Magnuson would at least let someone know if they are still trying to resolve the issues or if they are considering this latest attempt as "good enough". As I mentioned in a previous post, I haven't driven my jeep in over a week. I drove it yesterday and in addition to the shifting issues with the transmission, I happened to notice the slight surging that you mentioned. I hadn't noticed it before because I was so concerned about trying to keep my transmission shifting properly. Now that I know what to expect from the transmission, I was driving at about 65-70 mph and noticed the engine surging slightly. It feels like the bypass is trying to determine if the engine should be running without boost and then changes its mind and adds boost, then it decides not to add boost and the cycle continues over and over. It is like I'm slightly playing with the throttle by pressing the gas pedal down and then letting it back up.

I like the power that the SC has added, but if it weren't such a pain to uninstall it, I'd remove it and return it back to Magnuson or at least put my engine back to stock so it drives "normal" until the issues get resolved. I noticed Magnuson post on their FB page that they are installing an SC in a new jeep with an auto. They are going to publish the dyno numbers. It will be interesting if we get a new tune after they work on this jeep. I hope we do.

Do the people running the Magnuson with a standard transmission have any surging issues?

[Yoinkers]

This is all soooo complicated. My head is spinning.

[gbaumann]

I ordered my catch can today.

Changed my oil today. Emptied my catch can.

13231324

[FLIPmeOVER]

is that 3000 miles worth of oil?

how much would be considered a problem?

[gbaumann]

is that 3000 miles worth of oil?

how much would be considered a problem?

That's about 1,000 miles of driving at the end of a 4,500 mile change. Problem? Don't know but I don't want the oil in my intake.

[bo9roadking]

I emailed Magnuson last week about any updates on the auto tune. I received this response that could be promising:

"I just spoke with my tuner and after working with another shop, they may have found something that will help. They will be doing further testing next week and if they are happy with it, we will get you an updated calibration to try."

I'm crossing my fingers that this new tune is an improvement because my daily driver jeep has been relegated to setting in the garage and only comes out when I go to jeep events now.

[gbaumann]

I emailed Magnuson last week about any updates on the auto tune. I received this response that could be promising:

"I just spoke with my tuner and after working with another shop, they may have found something that will help. They will be doing further testing next week and if they are happy with it, we will get you an updated calibration to try."

I'm crossing my fingers that this new tune is an improvement because my daily driver jeep has been relegated to setting in the garage and only comes out when I go to jeep events now.

That's great news! Keep us informed.

I ordered MB AMG blue top solenoids for our NAG-1 trans. I'll post the install (which I'll have a shop do). I'll report on any performance improvements. The AMG blue tops increase shift speed and firmness.

[bo9roadking]

Received an email from Magnuson today. Apparently their test jeep for tunes was stock. They are putting a lift and larger tires on it to do further tune testing. I was asked to check back with them in a couple of weeks if I don't hear back from them first.

Going to take my jeep out for some rock crawling this weekend for the first time since the SC was installed. My jeep has been on the road a bit driving around town and on the highway, but it hasn't been driven much because I'm waiting on a better tune that is more friendly with the transmission. I'll post back on how the SC does crawling.

[Rexx19]

what did the stainless hoses cost? and the bender?

how do you cut them? Metal blade on a sawzall?

[gbaumann]

what did the stainless hoses cost? and the bender?

how do you cut them? Metal blade on a sawzall?

Stainless tubing was about 40.00. Bender was expensive - around 200.00.

[gbaumann]

cut the tubing with tubing cutter - plumbing tool.

[bo9roadking]

Contacted Magnuson this week about a new tune. I was originally told that a new tune would be available in about two weeks after their test jeep got a lift and larger tires installed. I don't know if that was two weeks from my email or two weeks after the jeep had the larger tires installed. Since more than two weeks have passed, I emailed Magnuson for an update. Magnuson's response was that everyone is at SEMA and nobody is available to work on the tune right now. I understand Magnuson going to SEMA, but I don't understand why the Diablo tuner would need to be at SEMA. Why can't he/she work on the tune unless Magnuson took their test jeep to the show.

I'm starting to get a little frustrated with this whole affair. Am I wrong to think that when a manufacturer advertises something, that it has been fully tested and should work? I see videos of people's jeeps with a Magnuson installed that are burning rubber to demonstrate the power, but when I ask a question about problems, I don't get a response. Mine will burn rubber in a parking lot, but the daily driving is something else. Even Magnuson had a jeep on a dyno that was posted on their Facebook page. They were going to announce the hp/tq numbers and post the dyno chart. I commented on the post that I'm interested in the results and asked if the transmission shift issues would be resolved, but then the entire post disappeared. Nothing was posted about the dyno.

[Gunner]

Well that sucks.

[FLIPmeOVER]

busch leauge.

Id ask for a date to receive a corrected tune, or a refund. these things are too expensive to play around.

[Gunner]

Still no new tune? I am interested in what they are going to do about this issue.

[bo9roadking]

Emailed Magnuson last week and got a new tune. Put about 200 miles on it. Engine seems to be a little peppier, but the auto transmission is still having the same shift issues.

Since I can manually upshift if I don't want to run higher rpms around town, that seems to be a solution for now. My main issue that I can't work around is highway driving between 65-70 mph. Unless I'm on level ground, my transmission won't stay in overdrive. It likes to downshift on any incline and hold 4th gear for an extended amount of time unless I manually upshift. There are some places on my commute to work that I leave it in 4th gear and deal with the higher rpms because manually upshifting to overdrive only results in the transmission dropping back down to 4th gear on its own. If I were to manually upshift again, it would yo-yo back down to 4th again on its own.

I like the additional power, but paying premium fuel prices, losing about 2 mpg, and an auto transmission that can't make up its mind when to shift is frustrating. Magnuson gave me the impression that Diablo was trying to resolve the transmission issue, but they have no idea when/if it will get resolved. If you don't drive your Jeep on the highway a lot, this is a great setup for the money. It really shines when I need the power while rock crawling. If you drive on the highway, you will have to live with only partial use of overdrive, higher rpms, more drivetrain wear because of the higher rpms, and less than stellar mileage because of the higher rpms. Would I do it again knowing what I know now? No. I'd either wait until this gets resolved or save your money for a V8 swap.