SuperCharger to HEMI Transition?

[gbaumann]

^^That would be an AWESOME thread.

I would have to say tho, Ive pounded on the pentastar a LOT. I think it may surprise you when you try to blow it up.

PS. give me the when and where on the hemi. I want to come see that. Or we could go completely nuts and put a supercharged LS7 in it.. How deep are your pockets?

Installed Magnuson's new tune this morning (if you're keeping track its date code is 11-1-2014 so if your tune file ends in a date code prior to that you may want to update). It's a bit shaky b/t 2,500 - 3,500 rpm. Surging. Not sure what they are going for with this tune but it smoothed out after warming up. Stay tuned (terrible pun).

Hit the rev limiter twice this a.m. trying to let the auto trans to upshift on its own. It's amazing, I'll be screaming right along and then whamo!, the RPMs drop and moms in minivans are passing me going uphill on Interstate 287 North (for the Jersey guys).

I spoke with my shop (I was happy to put the S/C in myself but I'm not putting the hemi in). They said it's a complete body-off conversion that takes about two weeks. Still pictures are no problem. They will send them as they go. They have a couple of Go Pro cameras set up in their bays and will try to work with me on time-lapse. I told them that I'd like to cover the conversion on JL and they said they would be glad to work with me on it. Now I need your advice on how that's done.

My pockets aren't endless but it was a good year. I looked at some of Arrington's supercharged hemi options. It's another $8-10k and AEV is complaining about supplying the conversion kit if I'm going for a custom engine. I'll save an LS project for a camaro or corvette. I plan on recovering as much of the conversion cost out of what I have as I can. I have extra stuff like a billet technology catch can (the one that got lost in the mail arrived and I never sent it back for a refund). I have all of my original Sahara parts (bumpers, wheels/tires, springs, etc). I figure I'd throw them all out on ebay or somewhere and get what I can for them. Same for the pentastar I suppose. I really want to tear it down and see how it's stood up to forced induction. Not sure what's going to happen to the Magnuson S/C. Probably sell it.

Look, I'd leave the pentastar on an engine stand if Prodigy or others are really going to offer new pistons or other internals. Happy to build a bulletproof 450bhp pentastar and be jealous of how much less it weighs than the hemi.

[JeepLab]

Hey bud! moved your post, I thought it was a good thing others might want to read on its own. Here's my question,

"Hit the rev limiter twice this a.m. trying to let the auto trans to upshift on its own. It's amazing, I'll be screaming right along and then whamo!, the RPMs drop and moms in minivans are passing me going uphill on Interstate 287 North (for the Jersey guys)."

(I was 287 north today)

When you say you hit the rev limiter, your saying that you floor it, the SC sings, and the Jeep is a rocket....But it dosent shift? And you lose the speed you built?

[Yoinkers]

I was staring at the same line about the mini vans also when the thread was moved. I was confused about the same thing JL quotes.

how the hell are mini vans passing you?

[gbaumann]

When you say you hit the rev limiter, your saying that you floor it, the SC sings, and the Jeep is a rocket....But it dosent shift? And you lose the speed you built?

That's exactly what happens. Say I'm in 2nd gear with the pedal all the way to the floor. The truck doesn't shift, RPMs go to 6,500 (perhaps higher - it's hard to tell) and after several seconds the computer or something else takes over and just cuts the power off. RPMs drop fast even thought my foot hasn't moved. I go from being pushed back in my seat to being flung toward the windshield. I assume it's the rev limiter or some other safety device taking over.

[gbaumann]

I was staring at the same line about the mini vans also when the thread was moved. I was confused about the same thing JL quotes.

how the hell are mini vans passing you?

When the computer takes over it cuts off fuel or does something to cause a rapid drop in RPMs. The transmission doesn't upshift so there you are on the highway in 3rd gear (sometimes 2nd) and all of the sudden I slow down. It takes a few seconds to recover. I have to lift my foot off the accelerator, let RPMs drop, let the engine come back under my control, let the transmission down shift and then start to accelerate again. If I'm going up hill everyone passes me.

I'll try to film it on my phone (safely) and try to figure out how to post a video.

[gbaumann]

Sorry, I meant let the transmission upshift.

[gbaumann]

http://youtu.be/awmhNJTBY8g

Here's a video I made this morning. Notice that when I go to speed up transmission downshifts as expected. Then during acceleration the transmission makes an unwanted second downshift. RPMs spike and something - either torque management or rev limiter - takes over and stops acceleration.

I'd love to have the groups collective thoughts on what's going on. Is it torque management or rev limit? Is the the fact that the downshift and RPM spike happen so quickly?

[gbaumann]

If you go to youtube you can see the tach. http://youtu.be/awmhNJTBY8g

[JeepLab]

If you go to youtube you can see the tach. http://youtu.be/awmhNJTBY8g

Thank you for the video, unmistakable. What does the SC company say?

[gbaumann]

Thank you for the video, unmistakable. What does the SC company say?

They say they are working on it but no progress yet. Diablosport can't crack the the transmission control module.

[bo9roadking]

I don't blame you with deciding on an engine swap. I'm going to do the same, but I have some time before it happens. For now, I'm scheduled to get some dyno time and a custom tune tomorrow afternoon. I'm not feeling too hopeful that the shifting issues will get resolved with a custom tune, but I'll at least have a tune for my jeep instead of using the tune from Magnuson's test jeep.

As long as I'm not heavy footed, I can manage the shifting issues. My auto likes to hold gears longer and rev the rpms higher before it shifts now that the SC is on it, but I can manually upshift or let off the throttle a bit to resolve the issue for now. I don't typically redline my rpms, so the only really annoying part for me is trying to keep the jeep in overdrive at highway speeds. The situation isn't ideal, but my jeep is drivable and it does have more power when I need it.

I'm hoping that by the time I do an engine swap, the shift issues will be figured out and I can transfer the Magnuson to my wife's JK. I'm not going to put it on her JK and hear her complain about the shifting if the shifting issue isn't resolved. I'll be selling a cheap SC to someone.

[gbaumann]

I'm hoping that by the time I do an engine swap, the shift issues will be figured out and I can transfer the Magnuson to my wife's JK. I'm not going to put it on her JK and hear her complain about the shifting if the shifting issue isn't resolved. I'll be selling a cheap SC to someone.

So I'm noticing a trend with several people mentioning "my wife's jeep." What is her setup? How did you both end up with JKs? Who gets the better gear? We should start a His / Hers thread.

[gbaumann]

Ordered the hemi builder's kit for 6.4L today. AEV says it will be in mid-January. Now on to ordering the motor and miscellaneous items for the conversion.

[UselessPickles]

6.4L

Go big or go home!

That should end up giving you peak dyno numbers similar to the Prodigy stage 2 turbo, except you'll have that torque through the entire rpm range instead of only the upper rpm range, and throttle response will be instant. And the sound... This will be amazing.

[Rexx19]

how long will the swap take? a week? a month?

[gbaumann]

how long will the swap take? a week? a month?

About 50 hours in the shop over two weeks I'm told.

[JeepLab]

Do not do this without giving me the when and where, I'm DYING to see it up close. (might bring a camera)

[gbaumann]

Do not do this without giving me the when and where, I'm DYING to see it up close. (might bring a camera)

You got it!

[2me]

Subscribed!

[WhiteRavenRR]

Watching...

[gbaumann]

AEV 6.4L kit is being put together for shipping to my shop. Sent my VIN for programming the new PCM on Monday. Now on to ordering the Hemi and Chrysler B.O.M. Stay tuned (is that a pun when posting in JeepLab?).

[JeepLab]

Good Pun, because all the threads lead back to tuning issues? LOL

Email me the address that this masterpiece is going down good sir, BB and I want to see that new power plant before it goes in. (maybe rub up against it a little)

[gbaumann]

Good Pun, because all the threads lead back to tuning issues? LOL

Email me the address that this masterpiece is going down good sir, BB and I want to see that new power plant before it goes in. (maybe rub up against it a little)

You got it. I won't do anything without coordination up front. I'll email you.

[Pznivy]

whats this cost overall?

[gbaumann]

whats this cost overall?

Around $28k.

[FLIPmeOVER]

DEAR LORD.

so we are talking about a 70k Jeep.

[Pznivy]

did you put any thought into dropping a chevy engine into it?

i always fantasized about dumping the old 440 six pack in a jeep. The sound is just heaven. I may still do it.

Chevy sells all the vette engines direct also. You could get the zr1 supercharged engine and dump it in. Or the new sierra denali 6.2.....that might be the best power plant available.

a vette engine built for a truck....

[gbaumann]

DEAR LORD.

so we are talking about a 70k Jeep.

I passed 70 with the lift, wheels, tires, supercharger, bumbers, winch, lockpick, rearview camera, hood, gears, air lockers, cold air intake and miscellaneous stuff like recovery gear and molded floor mats. I've done so much to the truck already it kills me that it's not mechanically right (or at least close enough). Thus the motor swap. I just want it to operate better.

[gbaumann]

did you put any thought into dropping a chevy engine into it?

i always fantasized about dumping the old 440 six pack in a jeep. The sound is just heaven. I may still do it.

Chevy sells all the vette engines direct also. You could get the zr1 supercharged engine and dump it in. Or the new sierra denali 6.2.....that might be the best power plant available.

a vette engine built for a truck....

I've seen a few GM power plants in Jeeps online but never close up. I am a big fan of GM performance. But for this build I felt it would be better to keep it Mopar so my dealer guys can service it and I can be confident I'll get it through inspection/emissions testing here in NJ. On re-sale (should it ever happen) the engine body combo is recognizable and all that jazz. Truth be told my goal was never to build a 470hp 6,000lb cast iron and steel tank. I'd much prefer to have a feather light tough-as-nails truck with a smaller power plant, carbon fiber elements, technical alloys, etc. That will be the next one.

[Rexx19]

x2 on 440 six pack in the jk. You can get one for under 10k.

Probably double that to put it in. Is that more punch than the 6.4?

[gbaumann]

x2 on 440 six pack in the jk. You can get one for under 10k.

Probably double that to put it in. Is that more punch than the 6.4?

Guys. There's no substitute for cubic inches! A real 440 six pack had 490 lb. ft. of torque at 3,200 RPM (per Dodge) I believe that falls into the "yank your teeth out" category. It also had three two-barrel carbs which makes it kind of impractical for a JK. Now, if you guys want to build a JeepLab CJ and drop a 440 six pack in it I'm in. Never worked with the 440 motor. Between me and family i've done LT-1 corvette; LS-6 454 chevelle, Chevy SS 396 and others over time. I even rebuilt a 301 Pontiac turbo (worst motor I've ever had. I broke the crankshaft!. . . what can I say, the trans am looked cool). My JK is the first Mopar product I've ever owned.

BTW the 392 "hemi" is less than 10K.

[JeepLab]

Guys. There's no substitute for cubic inches! A real 440 six pack had 490 lb. ft. of torque at 3,200 RPM (per Dodge) I believe that falls into the "yank your teeth out" category. It also had three two-barrel carbs which makes it kind of impractical for a JK. Now, if you guys want to build a JeepLab CJ and drop a 440 six pack in it I'm in. Never worked with the 440 motor. Between me and family i've done LT-1 corvette; LS-6 454 chevelle, Chevy SS 396 and others over time. I even rebuilt a 301 Pontiac turbo (worst motor I've ever had. I broke the crankshaft!. . . what can I say, the trans am looked cool). My JK is the first Mopar product I've ever owned.

BTW the 392 "hemi" is less than 10K.

The 440 sound is insane....

What is the best power to weight option thats fuel injected? Maybe the 340 ? I vote naturally aspirated, so when you get bored, you can put the blower on later.

[gbaumann]

Ordered the motor and dealer parts today. I will definitely post a schedule for those interested in following online or visiting the shop and seeing the work in progress when it happens.

[FLIPmeOVER]

what did you end up with? 6.4 hemi?

[gbaumann]

what did you end up with? 6.4 hemi?

I'm going with the 6.4 hemi. The shop Im going to knows how to do it and the dealer supplying the parts is a family friend and will support me with service.

[gbaumann]

Got the word today that motor and parts will all be in on March, 15th. I'm hoping to have the shop ready to go at that time.

[FLIPmeOVER]

Where is this event going on?

[gbaumann]

Where is this event going on?

OK Four Wheel Drive (OK4WD) in Stewartsville, New Jersey. www.OKwd.com

[gbaumann]

OK Four Wheel Drive (OK4WD) in Stewartsville, New Jersey. www.OKwd.com

Sorry. www.ok4wd.com

[gbaumann]

Just learned to my surprise that the motor and parts should all be delivered this week!! I will contact the shop to see if they can get me started now. I will keep you all posted and make sure lots pf pics and video go up. Anyone interested in any aspect of the 3.6 and Magnuson S/C coming out should let me know. If you need a list of what I'll have left over I can put one together but I assume everyone here at JL knows.

[KaiserBill]

6.4L -- I would still put turbos on it ... Big Cubic Inch only means more room in the cylinder head to put air and fuel.

[2k13jk]

I wouldnt put a turbo on a 6.4 they are very picky with boost alot of people are claiming there pistons are like glass one bad tune can equal a blown motor ripp just dynoed a 6.4 in a jk in 4wd it made 335 wheel hp

[gbaumann]

The engine is here! The engine is here!! OK I"m a little excited now. Balance of parts by end of week and then out to the shop!! Can't wait to un-crate the motor!

[KaiserBill]

The engine is here! The engine is here!! OK I"m a little excited now. Balance of parts by end of week and then out to the shop!! Can't wait to un-crate the motor!

Have fun putting that in.

[gbaumann]

OK. Here's the schedule. Unless something changes, my truck goes to OK4WD on March 12th to start the hemi swap. It comes back to me on March 26th (my birthday by pure coincidence). OK4WD has a publicist coming to photo record the swap as it's the first 6.4L they are doing (They've done lots of 5.7Ls). The shop has a couple of go-pro cams on the bay where the work will be done and they will try to "time lapse" it. They would love to host the guys from JeepLab that are local or who care to make the trip so any and all JL members are free to stop by and say hi and inspect their work. OK4WD is on board with chronicling the swap on JL. Turns out there will be another 6.4L on site at the same time. An AEV built 6.4L truck is going to OK4WD for a Dyantrac RockPro 44 front axle upgrade. So they'll have a finished example of a 6.4L there for part of the time as a reference vehicle.

The motor and parts will be delivered next Monday 2/23 or Tuesday 2/24. I doubt the OK guys will be able to keep the motor in the crate until March. So I expect that they will un-crate it next week. I will get photos and feedback and put it all here.

[UselessPickles]

I bet you feel like a kid waiting for Christmas. Can't wait to see some pictures!

[gbaumann]

Pickles, I'm going to have a spare 3.6L on my hands with roughly 50k miles on it. It has little value in the market since a person can buy a new 3.6 from Rubitrux or another shop's take out motor for around $2,500 with almost no miles on it. I'd love to tear it down and see what 25k miles with a supercharger looks like. Any thoughts? A JeepLab Skunkworks motor?

[UselessPickles]

Prodigy has some sort of plan for building up the internals of a Pentastar. So far, they have shown pictures of forged pistons. If you're going to tear it down at some point, maybe it would be worthwhile to build it back up with whatever mods Prodigy comes up with? Then make a go-kart with it :)

[gbaumann]

I'm thinking find a 2012 or later used truck and make an absolutely bare bones light weight rig. I mean if it ain't pulling an oar it gets tossed overboard to save weight. Put the 3.6 together on a stand and make the truck custom front to back.

[JeepLab]

Pickles, I'm going to have a spare 3.6L on my hands with roughly 50k miles on it. It has little value in the market since a person can buy a new 3.6 from Rubitrux or another shop's take out motor for around $2,500 with almost no miles on it. I'd love to tear it down and see what 25k miles with a supercharger looks like. Any thoughts? A JeepLab Skunkworks motor?

Im in! whats the total weight? I'll weld a table to hold it. (heavy duty casters)

maybe trick it out into a buggy.

I was thinking of putting BB on the auction block this spring, and building a KOH racer this year.

Maybe an Artec chasis.

[gbaumann]

Got to see the motor today. Just a sneak peak in the crate at the dealership. It's on the way to the shop. Should un-crate it Tuesday.

[Yoinkers]

Got to see the motor today. Just a sneak peak in the crate at the dealership. It's on the way to the shop. Should un-crate it Tuesday.

Where's the pic? Are you crazy not posting a pic?

"I saw up heidi klums skirt today....but no pic to share with my friends...." (thats you) LOL

Gbauman, your threads are some of the best around, but for the love of god man, Please post a pic of that engine before it goes in. Ive been lurking this thread daily waiting for it.

Im fearful, that its going to go from the crate to the engine bay and we wont see it.

[gbaumann]

Too funny Yinkers! Fear not. The motor won't make it out of the crate without a pic.

And I respect all of my friends here on JeepLab. So if I get up Heidi Klum's skirt I'll immediately. . . .Oh, who am I kidding, there's no way I'm telling any of you.

[gbaumann]

Parts arrived at the shop today!

1514

So did the motor.

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[2k13jk]

Ohh lawdy that a sexy motor

[JeepLab]

Parts arrived at the shop today!

1514

So did the motor.

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Wow. that is a thing of beauty.

[gbaumann]

Truck is in the shop! They plan to start today.

[JeepLab]

I talked to OK4wd a few days ago. I was trying to get a time when they thought they were halfway thru for some good photo ops. gbaumann,will you be there in the middle? or just to pick up?

[gbaumann]

I talked to OK4wd a few days ago. I was trying to get a time when they thought they were halfway thru for some good photo ops. gbaumann,will you be there in the middle? or just to pick up?

Ross. PM me with your email address and I'll get you in the loop with Rin & Steve at OK4WD. If anyone else would like to they can PM me too. I'd prefer to not post my schedule here.

I got to see another 6.4L last night! It's there getting Dynatrac ProRock 44 front axle. Clearly there is someone out there with deeper pockets and less common sense then me (just kidding). When I saw the truck and added it all up I was both relieved and jealous in the same moment. I must say the Dynatrac ProRock is awesome looking! Do any members of the JL family run Dynatracs?

BTW the shop is going to try to get a Dynatrac ProGrip brake upgrade kit in during the conversion. If they are able to then I'll post pics and feedback on the brakes.

[gbaumann]

And so it begins:

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[gbaumann]

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[gbaumann]

The shop informed me that my automatic trans fluid is toasted at 47,000 miles most likely due to overheating. Not normal wear-and-tear. It appears that there's no metal shavings but a complete power flush and valve body service is now on the list for this build. This is my first real "sting" from the troubled transmission calibration caused by the supercharger. I suspect that there are only so many times you can downshift from 4th to 2nd at 75 mph before you overheat a modern automatic trans. If you can't calibrate in conjunction with factory torque management then don't mess around with it.

[gbaumann]

Body came off today.

[gbaumann]

I saw a pic on Instagram. I'll post soon. http://instagram.com/p/0S5L1DD0YO/

[KaiserBill]

The shop informed me that my automatic trans fluid is toasted at 47,000 miles most likely due to overheating. Not normal wear-and-tear. It appears that there's no metal shavings but a complete power flush and valve body service is now on the list for this build. This is my first real "sting" from the troubled transmission calibration caused by the supercharger. I suspect that there are only so many times you can downshift from 4th to 2nd at 75 mph before you overheat a modern automatic trans. If you can't calibrate in conjunction with factory torque management then don't mess around with it.


I'm surprised the transmission isn't more damaged-- going from 4th or 5th at 75mph to 2nd isn't a transmission friendly act. That usually ends up with a lot damage being done. How, long did it stay in second gear at these speeds before it shifted again? This is one of the reasons why I hate the devil's handmaiden called the automatic gearbox. I hope this time you get the transmission tuned better-- your new engine might do serious damage to if that happens. You could easily roach it.

[gbaumann]

The shop is surprised too. And I'm not convinced there isn't some damage. We will see. The NAG-1 is good automatic gearbox. It's in lots of Chrysler and Mercedes Benz performance vehicles.

[gbaumann]

Some progress pics.

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[Snarf77]

Might as well POR-15 a lot of the undercarriage while it is that state. Super cheap insurance against corrosion.

[gbaumann]

Might as well POR-15 a lot of the undercarriage while it is that state. Super cheap insurance against corrosion.

If I don't stop doing things tot truck I'm going to end up POR! It's a great idea. I thought about one of the undercarriage coatings. Not this time. When I go for Dynatrac axles next year I'll do the coating. Is POR-15 specific for our application?

[gbaumann]

Motor mounts in awaiting grinding/coating. Maybe I should see if they can use something special?

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[JeepLab]

Some progress pics.

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Really stole my thunder dude. I was there and took these exact pics. 90 minute drive WASTED!

(well not really, BB got some attention)

[gbaumann]

Really stole my thunder dude. I was there and took these exact pics. 90 minute drive WASTED!

(well not really, BB got some attention)

If I had only known!

[gbaumann]

Not knowing whether or not it's safe to post I'm going out on a limb here (haha). Intake manifold is on the motor. Balance of engine prep underway.

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[gbaumann]

Not knowing whether or not it's safe to post I'm going out on a limb here (haha). Intake manifold is on the motor. Balance of engine prep underway.

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For those not familiar with the AEV hemi conversion kit it comes with an AEV configured intake for the 6.4L hemi. It's basically the same intake but specifically made to work with the Chrysler/AEV engine control. The SRT 6.4L hemi intake uses two different length runners. It changes the runners at a certain RPM. The dual runner system improves the torque curve. The AEV intake keeps the dual runner system in tact when installed in the wrangler application. Not sure how other hemi conversions handle it.

[gbaumann]

Motor is in the chassis!

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[Jimmy14]

Does this conversion retain the original 5 speed gearbox?
If so, are you not going to just run into the same gear change issues you were having with the SC 3.6?

[gbaumann]

Does this conversion retain the original 5 speed gearbox?
If so, are you not going to just run into the same gear change issues you were having with the SC 3.6?

Yes and no. Yes, it retains the same gearbox. No, I shouldn't have the same shifting issues. The reason is that the conversion includes a new PCM (powertrain control module). The PCM includes the engine controller and transmission controller. Both units in the new PCM are programmed to work correctly with the 6.4l motor. The problem with the SC companies is that they, through DiabloSport, can only recalibrate the engine controller. They can't make changes to the transmission controller. So the new supercharged engine is mismatched with the automatic transmission.

[gbaumann]

Body is back on! I'm told they may start it tomorrow.

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[gbaumann]

Oh so close! I'm going to stop by the shop tomorrow (time permitting) and hopefully get to hear it when they start it. Then, pick up on Friday.

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[UselessPickles]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQwYNca4iog

[JeepLab]

Great thread. We are going to need a sound bite when its done. Maybe line the HEMI up with BB and see what happens.

[KaiserBill]

God willing you will break your rear window when accelerating!

[gbaumann]

Great thread. We are going to need a sound bite when its done. Maybe line the HEMI up with BB and see what happens.

Can I borrow the carbon fiber hood and PM Forged wheels? I suspect she weighs too much outrun Black Betty. I heard somewhere that Betty can chirp 'me in second gear. Sound bite coming.

[KaiserBill]

So how much horsepower does this engine make?

[UselessPickles]

And more importantly... will there be a dyno chart so we can see the torque/power curves at the wheels?

[gbaumann]

It makes 470hp peak and 470lb ft peak. I have no idea at what rpms they occur. I'm sure they are going to tell me no driving over 50 mph for 1000 miles or some other thing until the motor is brokeen in. I will put it on a dyno if I can get time at the shop Sweat Pea went to. I think it's not too far from where I work. I'd love to see the rear wheel numbers!

[UselessPickles]

The Wrangler's drivetrain typically causes about 30% loss on dynos, so don't be shocked/confused if that 470 hp/tq turns into only about 330 hp/tq on the dyno.

This dyno chart of a 5.7 Hemi Wrangler shows about 27% drivetrain loss from the rated 372 hp:

http://www.jk-forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25499&d=1244913655


If you have a similar 27% loss, that would put you around 345 hp/tq at the wheels.

[KaiserBill]

The biggest problem is the automatic transmission-- the torque converter is energy sink...

[JeepLab]

You need a road trip to get that puppy broken in. The dyno is in hawthorne nj. We can finally meet and strap it down.

Maybe even get snarf up here with the turbo to do same day dynos. Everyones gear ratios are off now tho. JG. 4.88 BB 4.56

Baumann, your truck needs a name....

[gbaumann]

If you have a similar 27% loss, that would put you around 345 hp/tq at the wheels.

I've heard that the JK with auto trans is one of (if not the) most parasitic drive trains out there. The only trucks that I've seen making 400hp at the wheels are not naturally aspirated. Before making the swap I spoke with Arrington Performance and Southern Hot Rod who both can get you to 400hp at the wheels with some limited warranty. My craziness ends at whatever the 392 can produce at the wheels.

[gbaumann]

You need a road trip to get that puppy broken in. The dyno is in hawthorne nj. We can finally meet and strap it down.

Maybe even get snarf up here with the turbo to do same day dynos. Everyones gear ratios are off now tho. JG. 4.88 BB 4.56

Baumann, your truck needs a name....

I'm in. Let's have a JeepLab Spring Dyno Day. And (to be named truck) is turning 4:10s.

[UselessPickles]

The biggest problem is the automatic transmission-- the torque converter is energy sink...

It's not just the auto trans. Manual trans produces similar dyno results. And as far as real world acceleration performance, the auto actually wins because it shifts faster.

The torque converter is not the source of the energy loss because it locks up completely at some point. At low road speeds, the torque converter is even a benefit because it lets the engine rev up to about 2500 rpm and actually multiplies torque a bit. Better torque/bower than if you were to slip a clutch at the same rpm.

I still think the manual is more fun though :)

I'd guess that the source of the loss is simply the heavy drivetrain components (axles, driveshafts, components in the transfer case, flywheel) with high moment of inertia. The flywheel must be quite heavy. I drove a loaner Caravan with the 3.6 pentastar, and it revved like a race car in neutral with a throttle blip compared to the Wrangler.



Before making the swap I spoke with Arrington Performance and Southern Hot Rod who both can get you to 400hp at the wheels with some limited warranty.

400 hp at the wheels with the broad torque curve of the V8 would just be insane. And probably insanely expensive.

[KaiserBill]

It's not just the auto trans. Manual trans produces similar dyno results. And as far as real world acceleration performance, the auto actually wins because it shifts faster.

The torque converter is not the source of the energy loss because it locks up completely at some point. At low road speeds, the torque converter is even a benefit because it lets the engine rev up to about 2500 rpm and actually multiplies torque a bit. Better torque/bower than if you were to slip a clutch at the same rpm.

I still think the manual is more fun though :)

I'd guess that the source of the loss is simply the heavy drivetrain components (axles, driveshafts, components in the transfer case, flywheel) with high moment of inertia. The flywheel must be quite heavy. I drove a loaner Caravan with the 3.6 pentastar, and it revved like a race car in neutral with a throttle blip compared to the Wrangler.




400 hp at the wheels with the broad torque curve of the V8 would just be insane. And probably insanely expensive.

Torque converts can increase the torque of the engine that is true. However, they always have a greater loss of power because of the heat issues.

http://image.superchevy.com/f/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/other/1403_50_hottest_new_chevy_parts_for_2014/65074054/tci-torque-converter.jpg

And if you notice more transmissions that are marketed as automatics are getting away from the torque converter system because of the loss of power they create. Instead they are using dual clutches which have less power loss.


As for lock up torque converters they still show power losses due to the heating of the fluid within the torque converter itself. Also, that heat is usually transferred to the transmission itself more effective and another net loss of power is registered.

Usually, most of the literature on this will say that 2.5% to 5% power loss over that of a manual or AMT gearbox is shown.

However, as you correctly pointed out before the torque multiplication affect of the torque converter is why it is often used in heavy equipment applications where at low rpm the the engine's torque is too low to maintain forward motion without riding the clutch. That is why the Unimog has always had a torque converter hooked to a manual gearbox (now AMT) for use on railways and so on. Also heavy hauling vehicles usually like to have a torque converter for the same reason. But they do show greater signs of power loss overall.

I read a lot of technical stuff about these things.

Me, I think manuals are the only way to go. But, what I was saying is that if the Wrangler for some unknown reason shows such a high loss of power in the drive train as 27% then it is a good bet the Manual is at the lower end of this spectrum and the automatic is at the higher end of this statistic.

[UselessPickles]

I think an update on the status of this hemi conversion is overdue...

[gbaumann]

I think an update on the status of this hemi conversion is overdue...

Right you are sir! And no sooner than I saw your post did I receive the following video.

[gbaumann]

IT'S ALIVE! IT'S ALIVE!


https://youtu.be/lCLNjimNFUU

[UselessPickles]

Nice! How much more tidying up and testing is left to do before you can pick it up?

Are you going to do tons of driving this weekend to try to get through the entire break-in period ASAP?

[gbaumann]

Nice! How much more tidying up and testing is left to do before you can pick it up?

Are you going to do tons of driving this weekend to try to get through the entire break-in period ASAP?

I pick it up tomorrow at noon. I'll put every mile I can on her! And then report back with pics and videos.

[gbaumann]

I've got her home! Awesome driving experience so far.

[JeepLab]

Is she a rocket? The name is "cherry bomb"

[KaiserBill]

Is she a rocket? The name is "cherry bomb"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMDn6V7ZLhE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW_HCdU-qEY&list=RDpMDn6V7ZLhE&index=4
So, you want to call the Jeep after the Runaways' Song????

[gbaumann]

She's a rocket! Feels like she lost 1,000 lbs even with 400 lbs more motor. Shifting is much improved. Super smooth. Sound is unbelievable. I was unprepared for the growl. You gotta see the body flex when it starts! There's a small exhaust leak that needs a clamp not supplied by AEV/Flowmaster. It'll be here next week. Otherwise no other issues on day 1.

[KaiserBill]

That sounds great...

[UselessPickles]

Is it really 400 lbs more than the Pentastar? Do you have any exact weights for either the 6.4 or the 3.6 that it replaced?

[gbaumann]

Is it really 400 lbs more than the Pentastar? Do you have any exact weights for either the 6.4 or the 3.6 that it replaced?

AEV kit comes with 1" leveling spacers for the front springs. Instructions say the drop comes from added 400lbs that the 6.4 has over the 3.6. It's an iron V8 vs an all aluminum V6. I tend to believe them.

[gbaumann]

Spent some time this morning driving around town and along back roads. At 1,500 rpm in 5th gear (automatic trans) I'm gong about 42 mph (4:10s; 35s). So far I find I can do most of my driving under 3,000 rpm. At 80 on the highway she's at 2,700. Most importantly when I'm going uphill on the highway in 5th gear I can accelerate nicely without downshifting! If I press a bit harder on the pedal she downshifts to 4th and simply takes off! I've got to get her to Ross for a test drive!

[Rexx19]

I've got to get her to Ross for a test drive!

Dont leave him alone with it, he will spray it black, put on a carbon fiber hood and tell you he has no idea what your talking about when you come back to pick it up.

(thats what id do)

[JeepLab]

Dont leave him alone with it, he will spray it black, put on a carbon fiber hood and tell you he has no idea what your talking about when you come back to pick it up.

(thats what id do)

nice talk. He'd just tell me to turn it on. The growl would give it away instantly.

[UselessPickles]

You should be done with break-in mileage by now. Have you floored it yet?

[gbaumann]

Yes. I've floored it gently if such a thing is possible. I'm waiting for a dry day and a moment to get a 0 to 60 time. I have a Mygig Lockpick behind the radio which reads data from the CAN-BUS. It has a 0 to 60 record function. I'll try tomorrow. First I want to check the speedometer with my phone and garmin to see if its accurate.

[FLIPmeOVER]

SOUND BYTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and i love the avatar baumann. you earned it.

[gbaumann]

Sorry guys, no 0-60 or sound byte today. I GOT DEATH WOBBLE! Scariest moment ever. Steering wheel went crazy and came out of my hands. Felt like the front end was off the ground and trying to tear itself apart! I'm going to re-read Ross' thread on diagnosis and fix. Guys at OK4WD will get me in ASAP and think I'm headed for a JKS or Metalcloak trackbar. They also recommend an aftermarket tie rod and some other part (I don't remember). They don't like the use of heavy duty steering stabilizers. Let me know your thoughts.

[JeepLab]

Give us the complete picture, in my case, the steering was fine until I'd hit a bump with the wheels turned slightly. Then the front end would go crazy until I brought the truck to a complete stop. Then, it would right itself and I could drive again.

Did it come on with impact? even very slight impact? Can you make it happen at will? When testing, Id hit traintracks with the wheels turned and feel for vibration.

My first thought was to change everything too, but the aftermarket steering stuff may not be as dead on as stock. And the stock components are pretty beefy. Once we got to the problem in my case it was an easy fix, but we used stock components to be sure to preserve the geometry.

I have a big ass RK solid steel track bar.

[Timmy]

Sorry guys, no 0-60 or sound byte today. I GOT DEATH WOBBLE! Scariest moment ever. Steering wheel went crazy and came out of my hands. Felt like the front end was off the ground and trying to tear itself apart! I'm going to re-read Ross' thread on diagnosis and fix. Guys at OK4WD will get me in ASAP and think I'm headed for a JKS or Metalcloak trackbar. They also recommend an aftermarket tie rod and some other part (I don't remember). They don't like the use of heavy duty steering stabilizers. Let me know your thoughts.

To help find the source of your death wobble, remove your steering stabilizer all together while doing some low speed testing. The purpose of the stabilizer is to improve how the steering feels, not to stop death wobble. You should be able to hit a 2' pot hole at 60 mph and not get death wobble WITHOUT a steering stabilizer.

In my case, the entire source of my wobble came from a worn out passenger side tie rod end on my drag link bar and a worn out drivers side tie rod end on the tie rod bar. Since the tie rod end on the drag link passenger side is forged, I had to purchase a new drag link (went with a Synergy one.) For the tie rod bar, I ordered an OEM aftermarket replacement tie rod end for about $20. Put both on and the problem was solved.

I found both of these issues by using a set of pliers and putting them above and below the tie rod end and trying to compress the fittings. Each side had about 1/16" of play in them. If they were tight there, I would have jacked up the axle on both sides and then had someone move the steering wheel back and forth to see if any of the tie rod ends were lagging in movement at all. There is a good video on youtube showing this.

Point being... You can solve this yourself, and usually for cheaper than you realize. It takes VERY LITTLE wear on your tie rod ends to get death wobble. In all cases though, please don't go down the road of a beefed up steering stabilizer. That just masks the real problem. You should be able to drive the Jeep all day long without the stabilizer. In fact, I was just about to pull my stabilizer off in order to isolate a problem of the Jeep pulling a bit to the left now that I have my new upper/lower control arms on. Because I have a gas charged stabilizer, it doesn't auto-center at neutral but instead always wants to extend, thus, it might be the reason my Jeep always pulls to one side slightly, or it could be that I didn't get a measurement on a control arm right.

[Pznivy]

It takes VERY LITTLE wear on your tie rod ends to get death wobble.

^^^THIS!!!!!!

It tiny fractions of wear throw off the whole front end and you think your jeep has a huge problem, when really, its an hour of sniffing out the problem, and then a second hour of replacing the worn out end.

mechanics know it feels like the end of the world behind the wheel, and they will make you pay for it. So make sure they know your not a dummy. They will sell you a full suspension change in some cases if they think they can get away with it. At the end of the day its a $50 part from the dealer and your fixed.

[KaiserBill]

It is highly unlikely that you managed to accumulate 1/16th of inch of tie end wear in the few days you've had the vehicle back from the shop. Did they have to change or more any of the steering components to put the new engine in? That is where I would look for a problem first. But, I think that you're right to take it right back to the shop. I wouldn't even try to self-diagnosis this problem.

[gbaumann]

I second all of the above!

First, the wobble comes on after impact when turning the wheels to the left. A little bump can do it. But a decent bump will definitely do it. Need to be going somewhere between 45-65 mph. Otherwise the harmonics don't keep the wave going. I can make it happen.

I've been feeling the "lingering" feedback in the wheel for some time now and suspected that DW was coming. But as they say - if you think you might have DW then you don't. If you have it, you know it. Well, I know it and now I know what it feels like coming on. The hemi simply put her over the top with the added weight. It was only a matter of time.

I go to OK4WD at 7:30 a.m. for a diagnosis of what's loose/worn and to get a new track bar and alignment. Regardless of what parts are worn and causing the DW I'm told that the stock track bar isn't designed for the weight of the V8. Add the weight of the AEV bumper and the winch and there you have it. It's a known issue.

I don't have a big steering stabilizer. It's tiny. Again, advice I got from the shop. They tell me that the front end needs to react to the pitch of the road and turning. Kind of like you're supposed to feel the weight of the truck fall to the downhill side of the road and take the slack up in the steering wheel in the opposite direction. Big stabilizers (and two way? stabilizers especially) can prevent that intentional change with the pavement and can even slow the wheels when returning to center causing excess wear and masking real problems.

I'm not going to change everything. I'm going to be under the truck with a tech before they open in the morning and go through the components one-at-a-time. The track bar is a given and I'm OK with that.

[gbaumann]

I have a big ass RK solid steel track bar.

Did you have the RK track bar before you got DW? If so, I wonder if the tie rod ends then became the weaker "link" in the chain of front end components.

[JeepLab]

I did have the rk trackbar before DW. The problem in my case was the tie end from the pitman arm. Nothing to do with the trackbar.

I used an oem end to make sure the geometry would stay perfect. Like one above mentioned. I think I spent 70 bucks.


THIS IS MY FIRST IPHONE APP POST!!!! IT FINALLY WORKS!! DOWNLOAD IT!

[gbaumann]

Back at ya! From the newly downloaded iPhone app!

[gbaumann]

No more death wobble (for now). The guys cycled the front suspension and went over each component. The factory track bar was flexing where it's stamped flat on the bend going over the differential housing. Toe-in was also out of adjustment. New JKS track bar. She rides much better now. Can't make the wobble. All of that said the new track bar won't flex and doesn't have as much "give" in the ends as the bushings in the factory unit. So the energy absorbed in those spots is now being transferred elsewhere. I guess to the mounting points as intended. But . . . I'm sure I'll be replacing other items over time as maintenance and safety require.

[gbaumann]

0-60 time. I downloaded a speedometer app and confirmed that my speedometer is pretty accurate. I drove around and found a flat stretch of road. I don't know what the truck weighs but it's basically weights the same as a JK-350 from AEV plus the hemi. I had a half tank of gas under the truck and 10 gallons in the fuel carrier behind the spare. The hi-lift jack is on and my recovery gear is in the back which weights about 75 lbs with straps, shackles, snatch blocks, etc. The lockpic timer sets to 0 at complete stop. The instant you hit the gas the clock starts. I have no idea how accurate it really is. Here's the result.

1571

[UselessPickles]

I don't know what the truck weighs

Try finding a local landscape supply with a scale, or even a scrap yard. I just weighed mine for free the other day. They would have charged $10 if I wanted a certified printout of the weight, so I just took a picture of the scale's display :)

[gbaumann]

Gotcha. We have a waste transfer station near us that is open to the public sometimes. You can throw bulky items away and pay based on weight. They weigh you in and out and you pay on the difference. I'll stop in there.

[gbaumann]

Here's a link to a brief sound byte of the 6.4. http://youtu.be/8Qzlfh1Y5uI