New to forum, 2015 JKU with 3.5 AEV, Prodigy Stage 2

[Bkeef]

Hey guys

First time post here. I'm a new Jeep owner and was inspired by reading the threads here on the Prodigy to get one.

So far, here is what has been done.

3.5" AEV lift with Hellwig sway bar upgrade
AMP power rail
Alea Race leather install
Dynamat floor pan and upgraded stereo
Poison Spyder Mid width front and rear bumper with tire carrier (Line-X with UV top coat)
20" Fuel Maverick / Toyo AT2 ( mall crawler jokes here they come)

Ill post pictures when I get the vehicle back, but I'm excited to see how the turbo is going to work out.

My installer is adjusting the tune a bit with the back and forth from Prodigy /Diablo. Word is that the Jeep is scorching fast from mid pedal on but bogging out of the hole. They are working on that tweak and will get it back to me. The prodigy guys have been patient and responsive to the installers as it appears to be a learning curve over doing superchargers.

Interested to hear how the other prodigy guys are enjoying as well
Thanks
BK

[UselessPickles]

I'm interested to find out if your installer, Prodigy and Diablosport are able to work together to make some kind of break-through with the tuning. There still seem to be some issues with the tune in the 1500-2700 rpm range. Snarf, NOLAJeeper and I all seem to agree that we have similar issues. Driving style was being blamed as the cause for a while, but I think we were finally able to provide a combination of data logs and descriptions that proved it was not caused by driver input. Last I heard was that Prodigy acknowledged there was an issue, but they had not yet been able to reproduce the issue with a local vehicle, so there's not enough info for them to determine the cause yet. Here's hoping that your installer is a skilled tuner that speaks their language and can effectively communicate important details that can lead to a solution.

Overall, I've been thoroughly enjoying my turbo. The sounds never get old :)

My wife was recently able to witness me taking off quickly (full throttle through 1st and 2nd gear). She says it was hilarious and she couldn't stop laughing because of how much the jeep leaned back while accelerating, then rocked forward and back as I shifted to 2nd (manual trans). She said the front tires seemed to be on the brink of lifting off the ground. It's pretty amusing from inside the vehicle too.

[NOLAjeeper]

Bkeef! Welcome to the forums! congrats on the Turbo! It is a lot of fun!! once you get the tuning dialed in you wont look back on the purchase. I had the same issue when i had my turbo installed. Out of the hole full throttle jeep would bog out and hesitate sputter and then eventually rocket out.. sent data logs to prodigy they worked with me for awhile adjusting the air fuel ratio via Itune1000 diablo data logging. Worked out most of the issues. ive had about 4 tunes from prodigy each tune better than the previous.. Most recent tune is by far the best tune as far as daily driving. Smother up shifting as well as downshifting.(i have the auto by the way). Check engine lights have not illuminated. Mind you i still believe that there could be improvements in some of the lower rpms however i feel that its very derivable and tunes have come a long way via dataloggs and emails vs having a custom tune from a reputable performance shop. Keep us posted on your experience. Useless pickles loves data logs as well.. :) show some pics if you have any.

[Bkeef]

Thanks guys. I have not had a chance to look at any data logs at all. Totally in the dark until I get the jeep back. I was copied on last email from installer to wes and would love to email this to someone that knows how to look at it. Dying to see what it's doing or supposed to be doing.

Data logs I am seeing are a .drg file.

The installer I am using has done a few Magnuson jeeps but this was his first Turbo. His description was at dead stop and full pedal it would bog down until about 3000 rpm and then it would take off like a rocket. They had him try to power brake it and also stop and floor it and accelerate. He did three passes


PM me or email me at bskeefer at gmail dot com. If one do you guys know how to interpret this thing let me know. The tuner is with the jeep at the shop.

Hoping I get it back tomorrow.
Thanks
BK

[UselessPickles]

The .drg files are the tune calibration files themselves. Can't do anything with those files unless you have the Diablosport CMR software, which costs thousands of dollars. Log files end with .log and can be viewed with the Diablosport DataViewer software (download from this page (https://www.diablosport.com/downloads-updates?pid=2)).

Some of the feeling of "bogging down", then taking off like a rocket around 3000 rpm could be attributed to the boost curve of the turbo:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/boost_2nd_gear_update1.png


There aren't huge gains below 3000 rpm, but it also shouldn't be "bogging down" compared to stock. Don't expect it to drive like a big V8. You have to get the rpms up above 2500 and give it some throttle to spool up the turbo and create the power. If you try to drive it like a big V8, or expect instant snappy throttle response like a big V8, you'll be disappointed. Adjust your driving style to take advantage of the way the turbo works, and you'll have a lot of fun. Smooth throttle transitions give better results than stomping on the throttle, and don't be afraid of the upper rpm range.

[UselessPickles]

He did three passes

On a dyno? are you getting before/after dyno charts?

[2k13jk]

You guys need to under stand turbos produce boost under stress or high rpm the 3.6 is gutless naturally below 3k and bogging your experiencing is turbo lag very common on a turbo application with a long tube travel from tbe header to the time it reaches the turbo look at the ford 6.7 they minimize turbo lag with by reducing exhaust travel to the turbo to help it spool faster

[Bkeef]

On a dyno? are you getting before/after dyno charts?

Ok sorry, no dyno. They just did controlled stop and goes with the Diablo hooked up per Prodigy.


I looked back the emails from my installer and he did have a couple of .log files along with then.drg. I'm on iPad so I can't post from here.

[Bkeef]

OK so looked at data logs that I had. Im clearly not the guy to relate to what it sends out. From what I can tell it was stop and go from 0-3500 RPM over and over a few times. I will update everyone as I hear back from my installer and Prodigy. Those guys have had the logs since yesterday so they we should hear back today

Thanks
BK

[2k13jk]

Install a boost gauge and you wont have to worry about getting boost logs i did on my jk with a ripp then theyll be no mistakes of you over boost

[Bkeef]

OK just heard from my installer and the Prodigy folks think the symptoms may be coming from a faulty check valve. He has a vehicle on the rack at the moment but should have me in before lunch today. Would be good if this is the issue as we can resolve that pretty quickly.

[JeepLab]

Welcome! I'm late to this party, but here now and interested to hear how you like the truck once its transformed into a 4000lb bullet.

[Bkeef]

Pickles how did you get that boost/rpm chart? That wasn't from the data log I assume


Also heard back my check valve is fine but they are changing it anyway for good measure. Was told to drive the jeep for a while to let the tune set in. I'll report back after I pickup tomorrow afternoon
BK

[UselessPickles]

Pickles how did you get that boost/rpm chart?BK

First, I configured the data logging on the InTune to record only a bare minimum (engine speed, vehicle speed, throttle position, and intake manifold pressure) to get data rates as high as possible. The more things you log, the more time there is between each reading of each thing.

I started recording a data log before starting the engine so I could get a baseline reading of manifold pressure (atmospheric pressure). Then I recorded a data log of a full throttle 2nd gear acceleration. I loaded the data log up in Diablosport's Data Viewer, and used the option to export the data log as a CSV file. I opened that file in a spreadsheet program, manually trimmed out lines with duplicate rpm/MAP combinations, setup a column with a formula to subtract the baseline atmospheric pressure from the MAP reading to calculate boost, then created a chart of rpm vs boost from that data.

[Bkeef]

Ok so if we are working with an automatic we would chart the shifts but do you think the information would be reasonably accurate?

[UselessPickles]

There's no way to stop the auto trans from downshifting, so you couldn't get a chart of the full rpm range. Based on a data log of an auto trans I have seen, it lands at about 4300 rpm when upshifting from 1st to 2nd.

Trying to get a boost chart from 1st gear wouldn't be very useful because there's not enough load on the engine to get full boost, and the engine speed accelerates so quickly that the boost curve lags behind relative to engine speed a bit in 1st gear. Even 2nd gear doesn't give max boost. I've seen boost in 3rd gear reach about 0.2 psi higher than 2nd gear. Boost can even be different in the same gear depending on whether you are driving on a slightly uphill or downhill section of road, or if the wind is blowing with/against you. Less engine load gives less boost. I used 2nd gear to get my full rpm range boost data so that I could stay within speed limits. 2nd gear takes me to about 64 mph and 3rd gear takes me to over 90 mph.

The pessimist will see this behavior of turbos as missing out on extra power in the lower gears. The optimist will this as getting a bit of extra power in the higher gears where you need it more because you are at higher speeds with more aerodynamic drag and less mechanical advantage :)

I think the best you can get with the auto transmission is a boost curve from about 4300 rpm onward, which won't be much of a curve because boost levels out before that. You can at least use the data logs to see how much boost you're getting. Default data logging includes barometric pressure and manifold pressure. View the data log in the Data Viewer app, convert the barometric pressure reading from inHg to psi (http://www.convertunits.com/from/in+Hg/to/psi), then subtract that from the MAP reading at any point in the data log to see how much boost you had.

[Bkeef]

Well

All hell broke loose apparently between last night and today. My guy had parked my jeep on a slight hill and went to start and it wouldn't turn over. They though it might be low on gas so they added 5 gallons. Still wouldn't Fire. Put in shop til today. Plugs are apparently gas fouled and the motor was floaded. Not sure what is causing the vehicle to be flooded. Called the factory and expect them to get back with us. Sucks. My guys say they went over the install 200% to confirm and are not sure. The mechanic was saying tune related but who knows. This tune is In a bunch of jeeps and they keep tweaking it. Hope this gets resolved quickly. Not sure of mine being a 2015 is an issue or not. I feel confident the prodigy folks will figure this out with my installer.

More to follow.....
BK

[2k13jk]

Please do not crank the motor if its flooded its rare but ive seen people hydrolock there engine from to much gas and not be able to compres and bend a rod

[Bkeef]

Please do not crank the motor if its flooded its rare but ive seen people hydrolock there engine from to much gas and not be able to compres and bend a rod


Yeah, I haven't been in the vehicle yet. It's at th shop
If they jack the motor, it's on them

[Bkeef]

Any of you guys have to press gas to get it started? I read on the other thread that they were able to tune that out for Pickles.
Wonder if that's contributing to flooding

[UselessPickles]

Some clarification on the starting issue...

It only happened for me with one of the more recent tunes, and only when the engine have been fully warmed up by driving, then partially cooled down for about 1-2 hours. It would sometimes start then immediately stall. Then it would require a solid 3-5 seconds of cranking before it would hesitantly start again. It would start fine if the engine was cold, or if the engine was hot. Prodigy said there was just too much fuel being added during cranking. An updated tune solved this issue for me.

This discussion of running too rich has reminded me that I often smell that "unburnt fuel in the exhaust" smell right after parking and getting out of the Jeep, where I had just been driving "normally" (no hard acceleration) for quite a while before parking.

Then there's also the loud popping in the muffler when lifting off the throttle right after hard acceleration in 2nd gear (probably excess fuel igniting in the exhaust). Multiple people have confirmed this is happening for them.

I've observed in data logs that part-throttle acceleration in the 1500-2700 rpm range shows a lot of negative long term fuel trim (down to -22%). I've seen this in everyone's data logs that I've seen so far.

It seems to me that the tune is generally running on the rich side.

[Bkeef]

Thanks for the insight pickles. I was told this tune is running in over 100 Jeeps. I have a question.

Seems we are all getting minor tweaks of this tune. Minor tweaks seem to make a HUGE difference. I'm curious how his can be considered same unless I'm missing something. Seems like collectively they would collaborate some how.

Looking forward to mine.

[Bkeef]

Ok so looks like my guys are lost. Prodigy to the rescue. They are driving up to lay some healing hands on the situation.

More to follow
BK

[JeepLab]

Ok so looks like my guys are lost. Prodigy to the rescue. They are driving up to lay some healing hands on the situation.

More to follow
BK

WHOA. thats cool. You know it will get sorted out right the first time once wes is on the case.

[UselessPickles]

When is the visit from Prodigy happening? I can't wait to hear what they find. I'm hoping for another breakthrough in the tuning like the one that led to the most recent tune that is a huge improvement over prior tunes.

[UselessPickles]

I was told this tune is running in over 100 Jeeps. I have a question.

Seems we are all getting minor tweaks of this tune. Minor tweaks seem to make a HUGE difference. I'm curious how his can be considered same unless I'm missing something. Seems like collectively they would collaborate some how.

From what I understand, the end goal is to have a single tune, served by Diablosport's servers for an automatic download to the InTune, built up from feedback and data logging from many vehicles. The whole system of automatic updates from Diablosport's servers is already setup (from the beginning). I think they just haven't updated the tune on the server in quite a while. So even though many of us have gotten custom tunes from Prodigy, they are probably all built from the same most recent version of a "template" that Prodigy is maintaining and will eventually put on Diablosport's server's as an update.

We have no way of knowing how major or minor the tweaks are to each version of the tune. All I know is that the biggest improvement to the tune was the result of a discovery that some engine load calculations were incorrect. Fixing that may very well have been technically a "minor tweak" to some numbers in the calibration, but can have major effects on driveability because engine load is a core parameter used to determine ignition timing and fuel injection. A small error in engine load could be compounded through the various calculations, in complicated ways, resulting in a complicated pattern of varying amounts of error in ignition timing and fuel injection.



As for "this tune is running in over 100 Jeeps", I do not see that as valid evidence that any issue you are experiencing is not related to the tune.

1) Different people drive differently, in different conditions (elevation, temperature, humidity, etc), and have different combinations of tires, axle ratios, and vehicle weight. Therefore different people are very likely to encounter different patterns of engine load/speed, etc when driving, and exercise different "areas" of the tune than each other. If only a small percentage of people experience some issue, it may be because only that small percentage of users encounters the specific conditions that expose a flaw with the tune.

2) Different people have different expectations and thresholds for perceiving something as a problem. What I notice as a jerk, hesitation, or surge in acceleration might go completely unnoticed by another person. Even if another person notices the same thing I do, they may either consciously or subconsciously ignore it or rationalize it away as "just the way it is". Especially early on when they are still in the "honeymoon" phase, amazed by the power.

3) Different people have different thresholds of annoyance before deciding it's worth the effort of complaining about an issue and seeking a solution. Some people who encounter an annoyance just assume that it's "just the way it is" and can't be fixed, and only complain to their friends rather than reporting an issue to their installer or Prodigy.

4) Even if someone talks to their installer about a driveability issue, there's no guarantee that the complaint will be forwarded to Prodigy. Depending on the person's ability to adequately explain the issue, the installer's desire to work with the person to properly understand the complaint, etc., the installer could either intentionally/unintentionally misinterpret the complaint and give the customer an explanation of the issue being "normal" that prevents the customer from continuing pursuit of a solution.

[Bkeef]

Ok so the prodigy guys got in around 1:45 and are still on it. Supposedly my guys mechanic had some sloppy install techniques. Seems like they had issues with oil breather tube routing. Also air filter mount was jacked too.

Stand up guys for making sure this right. I'll post an update later as I hear. I was told it would be perfect before they left.

I'm very pleased on how they have helped so far. Very cool
BK

[Bkeef]

Ok so the Prodigy guys worked til midnight last night on the rescue mission. Turns out the soon to be unemployed mechanic had half assed the manifold install and finger tightened bolts. Oil vapor was also getting into the intake some how. So lots of cleaning and double checking. Apparently we had two parts that were problematic that are due in tomorrow.

They dropped back to two tunes ago and it's supposedly running ok. They are soft riding for 100 miles or so to break it in. I'm supposed to pickup Friday.

I'll say this Wes and Dan are stand up guys and went way beyond to make this right for me. The guys really stand behind the product.

I'll post more as I get it!
BK

[UselessPickles]

Sounds like this mechanic messed up more with your install than I did with my own install! I actually just had my second bad experience with a dealership messing up a warranty repair (not properly re-assembled AND additional damage caused during the initial "repair"), and your story is not helping me regain trust in professional mechanics. I wish I had a nice garage with plenty of space to work, fully stocked with tools, and a lot more experience to be more confident in tackling any job on my vehicles.

What's the reasoning for running an older tune? Why is it running only "ok" rather than "great"? Any indication of whether they got any new info from your vehicle to contribute to improving the tune?

I bet you can't wait till Friday!

[Bkeef]

I think Wes was wanting the old tune in as a baseline. The shop owner was to drive under half throttle for 100 miles to get the computer trained. I think those guys are coming back by today or tomorrow to check on it again. I was lucky that my install was en route to an appointment they had north of me.

As far as the Ok versus great. I really don't know its not great as I haven't driven it. Maybe poor choice in words as its second hand. Friday can't be here fast enough!

[UselessPickles]

It's Friday! waiting for good news from Bkeef

[Bkeef]

Hey guys sorry the delay. Prodigy overnighted two parts which didn't arrive until Friday mid afternoon. I had an early flight to Chicago Saturday am and couldn't arrange pick up of my Jeep. Needed replacement clamps for inner cooler hose and one of the breather filters ws botched during install one.

So I HEAR it runs great. Bad part is I don't get back til Wednesday so it's going to be a long few days!

[Snarf77]

Stage 2 is a beast. I'm looking forward to Wednesday to get some updates from you.

[Bkeef]

The wednesday is now Thursday. Prodigy noticed a clip on fuel line that was damaged on install and it was on back order. Tracks to be in tomorrow.

Sick of waiting. Post coming !

[UselessPickles]

Probably the same fuel line clip that I broke during my install: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install&p=2022&viewfull=1#post2022

After breaking them, it's easier to see how they work, and how to safely unlatch them.

We're all sick of waiting to hear your impressions :)

[Bkeef]

OMG.
Totally different vehicle from 2500 rpm on.

I swear the 40 to 80 feels I like maybe a second or two.

I really like it. I'm sure others feel the same.

Observations. From 1500-23/2400 feels almost sluggish. And the jeep definitely smells rich at idle. Clearly smell gas exhaust smell after sitting.

When the jeep spools up to get a huge acceleration then a few seconds later it's like the rocket fires off and your Wiley Coyote.

Spoke with Dan and those guys are getting a test stand set up in the shop and are focusing on perfecting this tune. Expect some real improvements soon.

BK

[UselessPickles]

From 1500-23/2400 feels almost sluggish. And the jeep definitely smells rich at idle. Clearly smell gas exhaust smell after sitting.

I've noticed the rich exhaust smell after parking also. I don't think idle is the problem. NOLAjeeper has a fuel ratio gauge on his jeep, and it shows idle in the 14.7-15.1 range (slightly on the lean side). Data logs show a lot of subtraction of fuel in the 1500-2700 rpm range (as much as -23%), so I suspect it's running rich in that range, which could also be the cause of the general sluggishness in that area. That's also the general RPM range that you would be driving "normally" in just prior to parking and exiting the jeep, which would explain the fuel smell right after parking.

In your opinion, is your jeep now MORE sluggish below 2500 rpm than it was before the turbo? It's been so long since my engine was stock now that I can't remember for comparison. I can't tell if it's actually weaker than stock, or if it just feels weak in comparison to how strong it is over 3000 rpm.


Spoke with Dan and those guys are getting a test stand set up in the shop and are focusing on perfecting this tune. Expect some real improvements soon.

Are they actually setting up a turbo engine on an engine dyno for testing/tuning? I spoke with Dan briefly and he mentioned getting photos of an engine with the turbo kit on an engine stand, so I thought it was going on a stand just for a photo shoot.

[Bkeef]

I'm with you it's hard to tell if below 2500 feels stock or just less powerful than above. I feel like it's maybe a hair less. It's easy to push pass but I think my fuel economy should he better. I'm only seeing 17 which was essentially that before turbo. I need more time behind the wheel as I've only driven a few miles so far


On the engine. He mentioned photos but also said wes had a new 2015 motor which they were putting in a jeep to tweak the tunes. They put stage 3 on the back burner for now. Sorry ifmy earlier post was confusing. I have faith they will get this turned quickly especially once they spend time on it.

If all of us are seeing the same 1500-2500 lag then we should collectively share that so they can focus on that first IMO

BK

[2k13jk]

My ripp jk which is a 13 also feels sluggish under 2500 its wierd with this advanced pentastar. My air fuel reads 14.4-14.7 idle constantly but at 1600 it will quickly read 15.4 then drop to 14.4 again cruising or above 1600. I think the reasom being could be it the engine goes into ecomode or some stupid epa thing to keep fuel economy good and use less fuel when cruising at 55 and the rpms are lower then 1600

[Pznivy]

My ripp jk which is a 13 also feels sluggish under 2500 its wierd with this advanced pentastar. My air fuel reads 14.4-14.7 idle constantly but at 1600 it will quickly read 15.4 then drop to 14.4 again cruising or above 1600. I think the reasom being could be it the engine goes into ecomode or some stupid epa thing to keep fuel economy good and use less fuel when cruising at 55 and the rpms are lower then 1600

The RIPP should not lag down low, how much weight is on your truck?

[UselessPickles]

If all of us are seeing the same 1500-2500 lag then we should collectively share that so they can focus on that first IMO

I have not held back on providing any feedback to Prodigy. I'm afraid they may file for a restraining/no-contact order if I share any more feedback with them :)

Please do share your feedback with them. The only way they can learn about and solve issues is if they get feedback from multiple people that clearly indicates a widespread issue with the tune, rather than isolated incidents that could be potentially explained as an install problem, poor gas quality, driving style, unrealistic expectations, etc.

[Bkeef]

How much oil did you guys see from your crankcase breather following your install? I'm weeping out a little bit. Noticed some apots in the garage. Wondering if it's just the jeep getting used to the tune.

[UselessPickles]

I can't really answer that because I've customized that part of the install now. I'm not even sure what the official setup is with the kit now.

Read through this post to learn about my current setup, and follow links in the post for more history/details of how I ended up with that setup: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install&p=3608&viewfull=1#post3608

With my setup, I have not noticed any oil dripping from the end of my breather hose. This is probably because I'm using the stock hose, which is HIGHER than where it connects to the engine. So any oil that condenses inside the hose will tend to run back into the engine. The downside of my setup is that you're more likely to smell some oil vapors after heavy acceleration. Those oil vapors under the hood can find their way to the HVAC inlet, or right into the vehicle if you have windows down, top down, etc.

I plan to eventually run the breather through an oil catch can and connect it back to the air filter for a fully closed PCV system. The Prodigy kit is the only forced induction kit on the market for the Wrangler that has the crankcase vent to atmosphere. They do this to allow for consistent/better performance when on boost by not having to worry about oil vapor reducing the effective octane of the fuel. The downside is that venting to atmosphere can be stinky, messy (as you are learning), and is not good for the environment (emissions). I really think an oil catch can could give the best of both worlds.

I think this is one area of the turbo kit that still needs improvement. Please share photos and descriptions of your dripping breather hose with Prodigy to ensure they are aware of the issue.

[UselessPickles]

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

[Bkeef]

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

I'll check for you today if I can and get you a picture.

[Bkeef]

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

I'll check for you today if I can and get you a picture. ***need to figure out how to post?

[Bkeef]

Are any of you guys running a catch can on their turbo install? I'm curious. The way this PCV is currently routed, Im getting oil drops. To describe how its mounted now -- It runs down parallel to driver side of transmission -- then drops behind to make sort of a drop or loop (maybe 3-4 ' gradual swoop), then turns up on the passenger side of transmission and zips into place. The picture shows the breather turned on side, but there is a bit of a P-trap with the swoop. Still dripping from this. I was able to move it a little and get more of a tilted 45' than straight horizontal.

Im no mechanic, but would like you guys to chime in. Ive sent to Prodigy for suggestions. They have been awesome to help, but I always look for other views to compliment.

1470

[2k13jk]

i run a catch can on my ripp kit i recomend it but buy a decent one not a cheap one

[JeepLab]

i run a catch can on my ripp kit i recomend it but buy a decent one not a cheap one

x2. catch cans are fantastic.

you'll know its there immediately, I should check mine to see how full it is.

[Bkeef]

Thanks guys

I just popped by a shop that another buddy of mine works with. They are going to put it on the rack this afternoon and re-route the PCV hose. Pickles nailed it. The breather regardless of trap orientation is below the oil pan level and is collecting the oil. This will fix the gas/oil fumes from getting into the car from the heat or AC.
More to follow
BK

[FLIPmeOVER]

AHHHH pickles solves it all!

You would think this is something that would be caught before sale.

[Bkeef]

OK gents

The fix is in. Problem solved. It runs a ton better under boost as well. Something about the PCV not being clogged with oil.. Sorry about the orientation..

1471

1472

[UselessPickles]

If I were you, I'd try to get the original plastic breather hose back from the shop that did your install (if they haven't thrown it out yet). Worst case, buy a new one from a dealer for about $16. Just remove the rubber hose part that originally connected to the stock air box and pop the small breather filter on the end of the plastic hose:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/pcv_update_2.jpg

Then it's all hidden underneath the plastic engine cover.

[UselessPickles]

And yes, I painted the chrome cap of that little air filter black :)

[Bkeef]

Good point. It looks decent now but I don't mind the slight chrome

I'd like to tuck under cover. I'll do that on next trip.

[Bkeef]

Pickles. Where is the little brass inline check valve coming off the PCV mounted. Don't see it.

[UselessPickles]

On my setup? It's hiding behind the engine where the PCV hose connects to the valve cover, integrated with the stock plastic PCV hose:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo/install/pcv_pipe_mod_1.jpg

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo/install/pcv_pipe_mod_6.jpg


More details: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install&p=2116&viewfull=1#post2116

[Bkeef]

Ok my PCV valve on the 2015 looks different. It looks like a small snorkel with two screw holes that mounts starlight to back of valve. I think I have a bad check valve. My mod pictured earlier failed miserably. I drove 400 miles today and arrived with oil splattered completely down side of jeep.

Catch can going in tomorrow for backup.

My guy took brass check valve apart and it held pressure but the movement was real jerky and not fluid. He thinks that at 2500-3000 rpm it's not breathing and pooling oil. Then when boost opens up it sprays everywhere. Dunno.

[Bkeef]

So to clarify I have a snorkel PCV valve attached to valve cover then line comes off and check valve is inserted in line off intake. Mounts under cover. Looks different than yours

[UselessPickles]

Looks different than yours

That's because I customized my install (as described in the link to more details) to retain an OEM-like appearance :)


None of my pictures show the PCV valve itself. The rubber elbow in my pictures is what slides onto the PCV valve and connects the PCV valve to the stock plastic hose.

Prodigy provides this hose with the brass check valve, and I just didn't like how it looked:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo/install/pcv_hose.jpg



Maybe this will help clear things up... This is what the stock engine looks like without the engine cover:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/stock_under_hood.jpg


Here's the PCV system highlighted:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/stock_pcv_system.jpg


Compare to the pictures of my setup I posted previously, and you'll see that I'm simply reusing the original plastic hoses, with some modifications to include the brass check valve in the PCV hose.

Red is the PCV hose, running from the PCV valve on the passenger side of the engine to the intake manifold.
Yellow is the breather (aka, "make up air") hose running from the air box to the breather port on the driver side of the engine.

The arrows indicate the normal flow direction of air. When the manifold has vacuum (no boost), it sucks air from the crankcase through the PCV valve and hose, which in turn sucks air from the air box through the breather hose back into the crankcase. This continuously sucks oil vapors and blow-by gasses (fuel vapors and exhaust fumes that snuck past the piston rings) out of the crankcase and replaces it with fresh air.

Regardless of whether you use the hoses provided by Prodigy, or customize it with the original plastic hoses like I did, you need that brass check valve in between the PCV valve and the intake manifold, installed to allow air to flow toward the intake manifold.

When on boost, the check valve prevents boost from reaching the crankcase through the PCV hose/valve. However, boost means more blow-by gases entering the crankcase past the piston rings, so you end up with oil vapors and blow-by gasses flowing backwards through the breather hose.

With the stock setup, no big deal. Those gasses flow into the air box, and immediately get sucked back into the intake manifold and burned up in the engine. With the Prodigy setup, it vents to atmosphere. If you have any dips in your breather hose, it could possibly act as a trap to collect condensed oil vapors. Once it collects enough oil in the dip to act as a partial blockage in the hose, the next time you use some boost, the blow-by gasses flowing backward through the breather hose could blow that trapped oil out the end of the breather hose.

I think it's important to make sure the breather hose runs up-hill from the engine breather port to allow condensed oil vapors to drip back into the engine (instead of out of the end of the breather), AND make sure there's no dips in the hose that could let oil pool up. The original hard plastic breather hose conveniently meets these requirements, and requires no modifications to use. Just remove the S-shaped rubber hose that used to connect it to the air box, and pop the small breather filter on.

If the brass check valve is backward, that could also explain the mess you're getting. That would allow boost to directly enter the crankcase and forcefully blow oil vapors out through the breather hose.

[UselessPickles]

...and again, those stupid ads are eating up valuable screen width and forcing my pictures to be so small they are almost useless. There has to be a better way to integrate ads into this forum without squishing the width of the post content like that.

[Bkeef]

Thanks Pickles

Appreciate the clarity. The arrow on the brass check valve, which direction does it point?


Also on breather side, my last hook up had absolutely no dips and was above oil area. Really bizarre why it blew so much oil, even on low Rpm driving.

[UselessPickles]

The arrow on the brass check valve indicates the direction that the valve will allow air to flow. It should point toward the intake manifold, like the red arrow in my picture. You can even double-check that the arrow on the check valve is correct by trying to suck air through in the indicated direction with your mouth. It might take a bit more force than you expect, so if it seems to not work in either direction, just suck harder :)

[Bkeef]

So went ahead and plunged with a catch can arrangement. My guy used a Moroso 84565 CC. He made some custom braided hose and T'd into the bottom oil return line from the turbo. Now the oil returns back to the oil pan. Works great

1475

1473
He also cut about a 1/3 from the check valve spring and added a different O ring. Seems to open better which we thought could be contributing to the boost push of oil. Boost before was coming in about 27-2800 rpm. Now it's coming on around 2200. Feels a load better. I picked up an extra 2mpg on my usual highway route. To early to tell if this was isolated but jeep runs great.

1474

[UselessPickles]

So I did a google search for "Moroso 84565" to find details on your catch can. First 2 results:

"The most beautiful vagina NWS - YellowBullet.com"
"Smart teen pisses off hungry frog?! - Dodge Challenger Forum"

:confused:

I like the idea of having the oil catch can hooked up to drain to the oil pan like that. No need to check/drain the catch can.

It worries me a bit that there was no obvious problem/cause found that would explain your oily mess. With your catch can arrangement, you might just be masking the underlying problem that is causing excess oil to come through the breather hose.

It also doesn't make sense that any of the changes you described would have any effect on when boost kicks in, unless a boost leak somewhere along the PCV hose was unintentionally fixed while removing/re-installing parts.

It almost sounds like there was something wrong with the check valve or its installation that was allowing boost to flow into the crankcase through the PCV hose. That would explain both a lack of boost and excess oil blowing out of the breather. Did you find something wrong with the check valve? Was it not reliably closing/sealing, or was it installed backward?

[Bkeef]

Check valve wasn't closing properly. It had a rough movement. We have another one coming just for backup.

Even with the repaired check valve we are still blowing the oil on part load driving. We could not determine any leaks thoughout the PCV system. I didn't ask if my guy smoke tested it but he says it's right now. What's strange is under full hauling ass driving there is almost no oil coming out. I really notice it on highway driving cruising 2200/3000 rpm when the boost comes in and out. This made us believe this was PCV related. You may be right about the repair fixed a small vacuum leak. The catch can sure as hell fixes the oil issue. Check valve was installed correctly originally so it wasn't backards. What I'm curious if the spring is weakened more will it bring on boost quicker?

I can only hope there is no other underlying issue. It sure drives great now so who knows.

** note to googlers. Must add catch can to Moroso 84565 search unless your into Asian porn.

Pickles, Dan caught this before you when I was telling him about the mod. LOl

[UselessPickles]

Check valve wasn't closing properly.

That makes sense. If it wasn't *closing* properly, then it would allow boost to blow through the crankcase and out the breather. This would also essentially behave like a boost leak, causing boost to take longer and require higher rpms to build up. Sounds like that was the root problem.


What I'm curious if the spring is weakened more will it bring on boost quicker?

No. The spring holds the check valve closed, and a closed check valve is what is necessary to avoid a boost leak into the crankcase. Weakening the spring would make it open more easily, which may allow the PCV system to operate more efficiently at part throttle cruising, but would have no effect on performance at higher engine loads... unless it is weakened so much that it doesn't reliably close, and that would bring you back to the same problem you just solved.



One attribute of check valves is "cracking pressure"... the amount of pressure required to "crack" the valve open. The best option for this application would be a zero cracking pressure valve. It would basically behave as if it didn't exist at all any time there was no boost, and the PCV system would work exactly as originally designed. As soon as manifold pressure crossed into the positive boost range, the valve would close and prevent boost from entering the crank case.

The check valve in the turbo kit seems to require quite a bit of pressure to crack it open. That means that at certain engine loads when the stock PCV valve would normally allow manifold vacuum to suck some air from the crankcase, the check valve is actually staying closed and preventing airflow through the crankcase. I'm thinking of replacing it with a valve that has a low cracking pressure (0.3 psi). That's the lowest cracking pressure I was able to find for a check valve that is the right size, etc. Dan at Prodigy was not able to obtain the specs for the check valve they use, so I'm not even certain that my replacement would be an improvement.

[Bkeef]

Cracking pressure is 1 psi. I have the specs. Let me know if you need more details and I can PM.

** What oil are you guys running in your Prodigy/Jeep?

[UselessPickles]

In that case, I'll probably go ahead and order part# 7775K13 from McMaster Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/506/=vsm98h (in the "Quick-Opening Brass Check Valves" section). 0.3 psi seems much better than 1 psi.

I'm using Mobile 1, 5w20l. It's quite affordable at Walmart. They sell 5 qt containers, so I buy one of those and a 1 qt bottle each time.

[Bkeef]

In that case, I'll probably go ahead and order part# 7775K13 from McMaster Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/506/=vsm98h (in the "Quick-Opening Brass Check Valves" section). 0.3 psi seems much better than 1 psi.

I'm using Mobile 1, 5w20l. It's quite affordable at Walmart. They sell 5 qt containers, so I buy one of those and a 1 qt bottle each time.

OK
For some reason my guys used 5w30 synthetic which is like apple juice. That could have contributed to my oil issues.....

So confirming now it takes almost 6 quarts with the turbo? I don't change my oil but was just curious.
BK

[UselessPickles]

The 2012 Wranglers called for 5w30 on the oil fill cap and in the owners manual. Starting in 2013, they switched it to 5w20. I've heard of people asking about this and getting a response from Chrysler that either is fine. 5w20 is thinner than 5w30, so some people suggest the switch to thinner oil may have been to slightly improve efficiency.

Owners manual states that the oil capacity is exactly 6 qts. The turbo would slightly increase the oil capacity because the lower end of the turbo's oil drain hose is below the oil level in the oil pan, but it's not enough to worry about.

[AGOM]

Sorry if this was discussed before, but anyone already installed a catch can with the prodigy set-up? Do I still use the valve that is currently fitted?

Also anyone getting oil in the small filter at the end of the make-up air hose the connects to the driver side manifold?

[Bkeef]

Sorry if this was discussed before, but anyone already installed a catch can with the prodigy set-up? Do I still use the valve that is currently fitted?

Also anyone getting oil in the small filter at the end of the make-up air hose the connects to the driver side manifold?


I'm running a catch can, check one page earlier. I was getting oil from breather as well. I have a 2015 and I think the PCV system is a little different which may have been creating this issue. I think all new kits moving forward will use a catch can along with a vacuum line to intake perhaps.

Mine works pretty well. I have seen a couple of drops by the mesh filter but no spraying oil for sure.

[AGOM]

BKeef, looking at your set-up for the Catch-Can - which is sweet by the way - i see that its fitted to the driver side, is it connected to the driver side hose, im confused, i thought the driver side was the Make up air side, so shouldnt the catch can be fitted to the passenger side hose where it will be filled with oil vapours comming out of the manifold? This is based on the pictures you posted, not beeing able to see the input to the catch can, and also seeing that the hose with the valve is still fitted to the intake manifold.
Can someone clarify this for me.

[Bkeef]

So the catch can is mounted on a custom bracket my guy made. It's miunted on passenger side behind the computer board. The hose that normally has the breather is now connected into to the top of the catch can. Catch can has a braided fitting in the bottom the runs into a T fitting on the oil return line for the turbo going to the oil pan. It actually connects to the bulk head fitting on the pan. Hope that helps.

[AGOM]

Not sure why im still having difficulty understanding this.
What i assumed is that air commimg out from the passenger valve cover to intake manifold which comes with a valve on the prodigy set-up is the air we want to be clean, because its the hose that would be carrying the oil vapours.
is your jk a right hand drive? Only asking because you mentioned that the bracket is on Passenger side behind computer, for me that would be driver side.

[Bkeef]

Not sure why im still having difficulty understanding this.
What i assumed is that air commimg out from the passenger valve cover to intake manifold which comes with a valve on the prodigy set-up is the air we want to be clean, because its the hose that would be carrying the oil vapours.
is your jk a right hand drive? Only asking because you mentioned that the bracket is on Passenger side behind computer, for me that would be driver side.

OK Im in US so we probably are opposite to you.

Sounds like we are flip flopped. Page 7 has a photo of the catch can in the motor on the driver side of my Jeep. I will try and mark it up with photo shop when I have a breather at the office
B

[Bkeef]

Hope this helps

Yellow is catch can and line that feeds from back side of motor (oily air/vapor). Orange is intake (motor cover is off for reference), you can see brass check valve on it.1477

[UselessPickles]

Yes, Bkeef's catch can is on the breather (make-up air) hose, which is still venting to atmosphere. This was done just to avoid oil coming out of the breather, and has nothing to do with keeping oil vapors out of the intake.

An ideal system would have 2 catch cans and a completely closed system for the crankcase ventilation.

1) From the PCV valve (rear engine right/passenger side) -> catch can -> check valve -> intake manifold (AFTER turbo/supercharger, where boost may exist). A catch can here would remove oil from the air that is sucked in while cruising at light/moderate engine loads or idling. This should theoretically improve engine feel/performance during normal daily driving type situations.

2) From engine breather (rear engine left/driver side) -> catch can -> intake system (BEFORE turbo/supercharger, where boost will NEVER exist). A catch can here will remove oil from air that is pushed out of the crankcase by piston blow-by gasses when on boost, and should improve full throttle performance.

The current Prodigy setup simply avoids detrimental effects of oil vapors during full throttle boost by venting the crankcase breather to atmosphere. Good for performance, bad for the environment, and annoying to the nose on a warm day with the top down.

[AGOM]

UslessPickles always to the rescue, thats exactly what i was confused about.
BKeef we drive on the same side, what confused me was when you wrote " its mounted on passenger side behind computer board" so just a miss understanding.
So BKeef's setup is different from what i was after although i have to say an environmentally consious one, which im also going to immitate, but my initial concern was the setup UslessPickles mentioned which will stop oily vapoures from making their way back to the intake.
So anyone got the other setup done?

[UselessPickles]

I haven't heard of anyone else with catch cans and a Prodigy turbo. I plan to eventually move to a dual catch can closed system, but it will be quite a while before I do that. Tires, wheels, and possibly gears are my priority now.

When looking at catch cans, be aware that there is quite a range of quality. Some are very cheap and simple cans that only catch condensed dripping oil. Others have well-engineered oil separators that capture much more oil vapor from the air that passes through.

This is one that I would consider: http://www.radiumauto.com/Universal-Dual-Catch-Can-P189.aspx

I think the toughest part will be simply finding a good place to mount the catch cans.

[AGOM]

I was looking at the Mushimoto or the Billet Tech catch cans, both are ment to be good.
But I like the ones you just posted, they look good but mainly it's because it is the best of both worlds, dual cans for both lines, better performance and cleaner air in the engine bay.

[Bkeef]

I haven't heard of anyone else with catch cans and a Prodigy turbo.

.

Dan was saying that new kits would come with them. From the sounds of it, Wes may have a closed loop design in the works. Sounds like a catch can with a vacuum line on it that hooks back into the intake.
Not sure if that's for sure yet or not.

B

[Snarf77]

Dan was saying that new kits would come with them. From the sounds of it, Wes may have a closed loop design in the works. Sounds like a catch can with a vacuum line on it that hooks back into the intake.
Not sure if that's for sure yet or not.

B

That would be amazing. I hope he'd offer the kit/update to early turbo adopters at a discounted price. I've been reading through all of these threads and I"m certain I need one, but uncertain of the setup. Something engineered and backed by Prodigy would be an ideal choice for my ride.

[AGOM]

That would be amazing. I hope he'd offer the kit/update to early turbo adopters at a discounted price. I've been reading through all of these threads and I"m certain I need one, but uncertain of the setup. Something engineered and backed by Prodigy would be an ideal choice for my ride.

X 2
They are better suited in understanding the right system and set-up for their kit. But the thing is when? Soon i hope.