Which Supercharger would you go with?

[Timmy]

I'm getting closer and closer to pulling the trigger on a supercharger. I'm curious, for those with a supercharger, and for those without but have kept up on the various supercharger threads, which SC would you go with? No need to respond with a "I'd go with a turbo." I've decided I'm not interested in a turbo at all.

In case your answer depends on the type of rig it would go in, let's use mine since I'm the one asking. 2014 JKU, 6 Speed manual (no worries of transmission programming issues.) I will eventually be putting 37" tires on and I think I'll be doing same as FerriFast and go with 4.88 gearing. I will NOT be putting on ANY other engine upgrades. No air-intake changes, no exhaust changes, nothing, SC is it. My driving is mainly city driving, highway speeds to 55-60mph when going on adventures, and occasional Interstate (75mph) driving. This is my third vehicle for fun, not a required daily driver (though I do drive it every day.)

It seems that there are three SC's right now in contention, Ripp, Magnuson and Sprintex. Here is what I've gathered from each so far...

RIPP

Videos of owner show he seems to be passionate about making sure the SC and the tune solid. Has the mentality that "you take your family off-roading with you, you can't afford a failure or issue." Sounds like they've done the most amount of real-world testing of actual off-road trips.
I believe they are now including an oil catch can as part of their shipments? Must have been watching and learning from forum postings (and has actually posted on JL forums.)
Appears to produce the lowest amount of boost of the group, choosing reliability and drive-ability over outright performance.
High Elevation pully available that produces 11 PSI instead of 8 PSI @ sea level, they don't advertise this much because they chose reliability first.
SC does require maintenance, I believe at 100,000 miles.
Sweet looking SC intercooler, but requires some frame modifications to fit.
Indicates should take about 8 to 10 hours to install yourself.
Centrifugal style SC, which has "spool up" more like a turbo.


MAGNUSON

SC is the same one used by Audi (whom does massive R&D,) produces boost sooner and more linear.
AEV has chosen Magnuson SC for their resale, so it potentially will be most mass-installed since Chrysler dealer network is in deep with AEV. More installs = more support going in to product.
High Elevation pully available that produces 11 PSI instead of 8 PSI @ sea level. I believe JL tried to install this afterward and found it near impossible, so best to order with it originally?
SC intercooler not as cool looking, but does not require frame modifications?
SC never requires maintenance.
SC supposedly has bypass valve that turns off almost all SC drag when not on boost.
Indicates should take about 8 to 10 hours to install yourself.
I've heard lots of tuning complaints about Mag SC.
Roots style SC


SPRINTEX

I believe I read lowest price?
I believe I read highest boost?
I believe I read lowest stated install time?
Sounds like Sprintex support is really good, really fast?
Don't know much more about Sprintex, please fill in good/bads.
Twin Screw style SC.


[Thanks goes to Pickles for clarifying which manufacturer was which type of SC between cent, roots and twin screw.]

[Pznivy]

RIPP. these other guys are STILL playing catch up.

[UselessPickles]

Also keep in mind that those are 3 different types of superchargers that develop different torque curve shapes.

RIPP - Centrifugal
Sprintex - Twin Screw
Magnuson - Roots


Here's a general comparison of how torque curve shapes differ:

http://www.tricktuners.com/Uploads/powerbands.JPG


"PD Blower" in that chart would be "Roots". Twin Screw is missing from that chart, but it is a compromise between Centrifugal and Roots.Twin Screw has some decent boost at lower rpm (but not as much as Roots), and increases boost through the rpm range.

If Sprintex has higher peak boost than Magnuson, then it's most likely only in the higher rpm range.

[Yoinkers]

Also keep in mind that those are 3 different types of superchargers that develop different torque curve shapes.

RIPP - Centrifugal
Sprintex - Twin Screw
Magnuson - Roots


Here's a general comparison of how torque curve shapes differ:

http://www.tricktuners.com/Uploads/powerbands.JPG


"PD Blower" in that chart would be "Roots". Twin Screw is missing from that chart, but it is a compromise between Centrifugal and Roots.Twin Screw has some decent boost at lower rpm (but not as much as Roots), and increases boost through the rpm range.

If Sprintex has higher peak boost than Magnuson, then it's most likely only in the higher rpm range.

pickles, who are you voting for here?

Sprintex is the black box of the group. No one really knows anything. Mags problems have been documented, but i think they are getting on track now with that thread about the tune getting corrected.

[UselessPickles]

I think it's too early to make any decisions based on tune quality. Everyone is still working out some annoyances in their tunes. If RIPP has the best tune right now, it's probably most likely because they got to market first and have a head start on getting feedback and data logs from many customers. If tuning annoyances are an absolute deal breaker for you, I think the best decision would be to be patient and wait a while for more fine tuning from all the manufacturers, and get more feedback from owners of each kit with future refined tunes.

Based on boost/torque curve shapes alone, I like the twin screw style (Sprintex). Big gains throughout the RPM range, but biased toward the upper RPM range. Boost at low RPM is rougher on the engine than the same boost at higher RPM. Also, having big boost at low RPM would most likely tempt me to make use of that boost at low RPM, potentially lugging the engine (but letting the boost "push" through the lugging). Biasing the gains toward higher RPM rewards/encourages you to downshift and make use of RPMs to get power, which is gentler on the engine. This isn't as much of a concern if you have an auto trans, since it will automatically downshift as you press the throttle down more.

At the same time, though, an auto trans means that a kit biased toward high RPM power will give you the best results for street driving. Push the pedal down, transmission will downshift, and you'll be at higher RPMs making big power. You'll rarely be able to make use of any big low RPM boost with an auto trans (only when at low enough speeds that the transmission can't downshift because you're already in 1st gear at low RPM).

What I'd really like to see is a dyno chart comparing torque curves of ALL forced induction options on the Wrangler, from the same dyno :)

One detail I don't like about the Sprintex and Magnuson is that the IAT (intake air temp) sensor is BEFORE the supercharger, so it's not actually measuring the temp of the air entering the engine. After the temp is measured, the air gets heated up as it's compressed, then cooled back down some amount by the air-water heat exchanger. How can the tune accurately take into account the final air temp if it's not directly measured? I'd like to know more about how they deal with this.

You should also read through the install guides yourself to see exactly how involved each kit is.
Magnuson: https://www.quadratec.com/Assets/Installation/200973.pdf
Sprintex: http://www.sprintex.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/263D1001-Jeep-JK-3-6L-V6-Supercharger-Kit-Installation-Instructions-Rev-1-2-US-letter-format-22-08-14-signed-off..pdf
RIPP: Can't find it online with a quick search. Contact RIPP?

BTW - Those install guides are all MUCH more clear/detailed than the Prodigy install guide. The supercharger install guides are actually targeted at competent DIYers, where the Prodigy install guide is targeted at experienced install shops that are assumed to already have all the best-practices knowledge, easy access to look up torque specs, etc.One of the guides above gives details instructions on how to disconnect the fuel line, which would have saved me from breaking the clips if the Prodigy instructions included that detail :)

Magnuson and Sprintex install are more involved/complex than RIPP because of the air-water intercoolers.

I like that Magnuson and Sprintex both retain the stock air box, for max protection against water ingestion. This also means that snorkel kits are directly compatible with these superchargers.

It's really a tough decision that can only be made based on your personal priorities. For example, I actually like the torque curve of the Sprintex better than the turbo... but there's just something about turbos that made me want the turbo more. The overall subjective experience of driving a turbo vehicle won for me.

Basically, if there's one particular style of forced induction that you really like for no particular logical reason, go for it. The stock engine is already practical. We're beyond practicality now when adding forced induction, so pick what will make you smile every day, rather than what is objectively practical.

[Timmy]

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to write that entire thing Pickles! I'm going to have to go back and re-read to digest it all when I have more time. I didn't realize that roots vs. twin screw were that big of a difference, but as I've started to do some research, I'm learning they are. I am finding interesting information that the Eaton SC that Mag uses is not technically a roots, but more of a roots/twin screw hybrid. I'll have to research into that more to confirm though, and to find out exactly what that means!

[gbaumann]

Timmy. like JL, I did my own Mag install and would be happy to discuss how it went and what I would change in the instructions. I would count on a bit more than 8-10 hours. I had three mechanics, myself and two others, all of who have quite a bit of experience. No special skill needed but lots of careful torquing and lots of steps. With breaks for meals it took us about 12 hours including time to update vehicle software.

The good news is whatever you pick you'll have friends here to share their experience and help out.

[Timmy]

I just remembered, one or more of these SC's requires a different oil filter setup, correct? Which one was it, and is a good or bad thing?

[Timmy]

Here's another question... Which SC is the quietest in operation? Don't get me wrong, I understand no matter how you do it that seeking more horsepower will always result in more sound, but if I have the choice and all things being equal, I'd like the quietest SC I could get.

I partially ask because I was just watching youtube videos of the Sprintex installed on JK's, and the Sprintex seemed noticeably louder than than the Mag SC videos.

[Timmy]

Wow, found an AWESOME document on the Eaton 1320 TVS SC that Magnuson uses. Pickles, that has your name all over it -> www.engine-expo.com/forum_2009/pdfs/day1/11_robert_walling.pdf

The document helps to answer some of the questions on why the Magnuson youtube videos seem to indicate a quieter operation than the other SC videos I'm seeing.

[JeepLab]

Here's another question... Which SC is the quietest in operation?


I don't know anything about sprintex. RIPP and PRODIGY are tied for the cool sounds award. Mag is less noticeable.

When I roll into a jeep show slow, I keep it in low gear, and let the rpm climb, people ALWAYS tell me BB sounds like an Fighter Jet.

That whistle....oooooo that whistle. You know something is lurking under the ram air hood. Nothing on this truck is for show.

With the turbo, the PSSSSSSSSSST blow off is where the money is at. both equally good.

[rgeorge33]

I have the Sprintex and can tell you that the power is impressive. However, the initial tune isn't perfect. The most frustrating part is that some days it feels pretty decent, other days it seems like there is more surging and stumbling. They are working on a getting me a second tune based on my logs, so we'll see. Like all the others, you have to lift-to-shift under heavy throttle. The twin screw sound is noticeable, but not annoying. Look through the thread about the Sprintex unit and you'll see a video posted by icheer4beer. You'll hear exactly what it sounds like.

The install took me a couple days, but I worked slowly and took some pics along the way. There are some fasteners on the backside of the unit that are knuckle busters, but other than that, the install is pretty straight forward. I received a bad wiring harness with the kit, so that delayed things by a week during the install. Now I'm just waiting for a tune... I think you'll find that with any of the options listed, it will required patience. If you've read through all the different forced induction threads, you'll see that almost everyone has had some sort of issue. Those issues differ in severity and time towards resolution, but there's always something. If your expectations are realistic, you'll be better off. From what I can ascertain, the V8 swaps are awesome, but the price is not.

If you have any specific questions regarding the Sprintex unit, let me know. I'll try to answer as quickly and completely as possible.

Randy

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a413/rgeorge33/Jeep/Sprintex/IMG_4805_zpsf870fcd8.jpg

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a413/rgeorge33/Jeep/Sprintex/IMG_4802_zps1d58f8de.jpg

http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a413/rgeorge33/Jeep/Sprintex/IMG_4801_zps9e9da240.jpg

[FLIPmeOVER]

I feel like all of them are generally the same. where do you want your power? low? mag sprintex, mid high? ripp prodigy.

all different roads to the same end.

[Timmy]

I feel like all of them are generally the same. where do you want your power? low? mag sprintex, mid high? ripp prodigy.

all different roads to the same end.

Great question. At this point, I don't think I really care too much where the power is located in the RPM curve. They are all producing great power and I'm sure all will be equally enjoyable. There are soooooo many other factors that come in to play about drive-ability such as tire size, gearing, auto/manual, driving style, driving location, etc. that at the end of the day it seems the only thing that matters is that there is MOAR HP!

For me, I'm now getting down to things like ease/difficulty of install. Can you order it with a high elevation pully already installed, and will the tune work for that correctly out of the gate. Does it require a change to the oil filter. How loud is it. Which company is going to be more responsive to getting their tune right. Which company has an SC that is more likely to work right out of the box on a stock engine with no other modifications. Obviously price is a factor, but less so because this is already such a big price and an important thing to get right that I'll happily spend an extra $1k up front if the SC works as described out of the gate, versus saving $1k on a different SC and having nothing but problems with it.

At this point I'm leaning towards the Magnuson SC. I was sort of hoping that more people would be voting in the poll I included on this thread so I could get a better feel of what the overall Jeep community here was sensing was the better SC. So far it is a three way tie between the three people that have voted, so that didn't really help ;-) If I am going to pull the trigger on this, I'm not doing anything until winter is over and the weather turns nice. Anything could change between now and then that might sway me towards a different SC.

[2k13jk]

For me the few things that led to ripp is 1 the stock belt is used with the standard pulley so you can get a new belt from any store for the engine 2 its a vortech blower which is tried and proven and 3 the intake temp sensor reading post cooled air which helps monitor the engine while driving

[Alucard rawg]

there will soon be another roots option. Edelbrock
page 148 http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/misc/catalogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wELPYTkL7-4&feature=player_embedded

[UselessPickles]

Right in that video, the Edelbrock rep says they use the Eaton TVS 1320 supercharger, which is exactly what Magnuson uses. The difference will potentially be in the rest of the supporting parts in the kit, tuning, customer support, etc. But it's essentially the same thing.

Makes me wonder if it really is an independently-designed kit using the same supercharger, or if it's just a re-branded Magnuson.

[UselessPickles]

Just looked at the Edelbrock catalog, and it says "designed, cast and manufactured by Edelbrock", so it's only the main supercharger component itself that is shared with the Magnuson. General torque curve and gains should be very similar to the Magnuson, so now it's competition for price, fine-tuning (driveability), and customer support.

[UselessPickles]

That's cool: Edelbrock designed theirs to allow access to the stock oil filter. Magnuson does not have enough clearance to get the stock oil filter, so they provide a special multi-piece reusable oil filter that can be removed with the limited space.

[Alucard rawg]

the Eforce looks like it is off set to the drivers side and has the notch for the filter (different solution to the filter issue) looks like it may sit further forward as well. I think the only parts the same are the rotors. he said independent runners anyone got a pic of the bottom and top of the mags manifold?

[rgeorge33]

To change the oil with the Sprintex unit, I removed the airbox tube from the throttle body. In the pictures I posted above, you'll see that the MAP sensor wire is in the way. You can either push it to the side or just unhook it. You still use the OEM filter and can easily get to it with the air hose out of the way.

[Timmy]

To change the oil with the Sprintex unit, I removed the airbox tube from the throttle body. In the pictures I posted above, you'll see that the MAP sensor wire is in the way. You can either push it to the side or just unhook it. You still use the OEM filter and can easily get to it with the air hose out of the way.

This is GREAT information guys, keep it coming. This is the type of stuff that you read little bits and pieces of and then forget about. When I get a chance, I'm going to edit my original posting and try to include this stuff. Maybe this can become sort of a living document of the differences between the SC's.

[Alucard rawg]

I have a few questions the bypass valves seem to be hurting the low end on the pd blowers. The dyno charts I have seen make it seem that the turbo may even be better for wheeling than the roots and that blows my mind. ( dyno charts and real world =2 different things) I get that vacuum controls the valve but how? I would want a roots because I want off idle torque but the bypass valve seems to be killing that. what kind of boost are you seeing while crawling at low rpms and little throttle? if you disconnect and plug the vacuum line does the valve say open or closed?

[2k13jk]

The bypass valve on my ripp which i changed for a tial blow off valve its main job its to let boost in when enough vacuum pulls it closed and lets off excess boost throttle body closes it dumps the boost to prevent compressor surge you need the valve or youll pretty much destroy something in the motor

[gbaumann]

I have a few questions the bypass valves seem to be hurting the low end on the pd blowers. The dyno charts I have seen make it seem that the turbo may even be better for wheeling than the roots and that blows my mind. ( dyno charts and real world =2 different things) I get that vacuum controls that the valve but how? I would want a roots because I want off idle torque but the bypass valve seems to be killing that. what kind of boost are you seeing while crawling at low rpms and little throttle? if you disconnect and plug the vacuum line does the valve say open or closed?

I can speak somewhat to Magnuson's bypass because that's what I have. According to Mag the bypass is not supposed to close until manifold pressure is at 0 bar. Think of that as wide open throttle. For guys with manual transmissions that works because you can pick a gear and step on the pedal which opens the throttle dropping the pressure and closing the bypass. For automatic transmissions guys it's an issue because you don't pick your gear and the computer's selection is most often not good. If you don't step on it all the way you're not closing the bypass all the way. That's how the system is designed. If your foot is light on the pedal then you're not on boost.

DO NOT DISCONNECT THE BYPASS VACUUM LINE! Yes, it will put you on boost all the time like a diesel or dragster. But you won't have software calibration for that condition and I genuinely believe you'll risk leaning out. Also, the effective compression and cylinder pressures will, in my opinion, wear the motor out. The block, heads and rotating assembly are not designed for it. The superchargers and turbos we are using are designed to give you the occasional boost of power you need and then sit on the sidelines to save fuel and save wear and tear. They are ideally designed for off-the-line acceleration at wide open throttle or when towing heavy loads that you need to build momentum to get going.

[UselessPickles]

The only supercharger experience I have is a quick drive in a 3.8 Sprintex Wrangler JKU with an automatic transmission. There were definitely times when I could feel bypass valve open/close as I adjusted the throttle and crossed that manifold pressure threshold, because there was a small sudden change in power delivery that could be reliably reproduced by modulating the throttle. I noticed this while cruising at freeway speeds in overdrive. I could imagine that the magnitude of the change in power delivery would be bigger if you were flirting with that threshold in 1st gear while trying to climb over something off road. Have any of you supercharger guys experienced anything like this?

One thing I like about the turbo is that boost is not an on/off thing. It's a continuum of boost that scales with engine load. Smoothly pressing the pedal gives you smoothly increasing boost. On the other hand, the roots and twin screw superchargers can actually give you near full boost at low rpms if you push the pedal down enough to close the bypass valve, but no matter how much you press the pedal, the turbo just can't give you much boost at low rpms.

[FLIPmeOVER]

My vote is RIPP.

Im close to the money, and RIPP will get it. Most widely used. The lift to shift thing sucks for autos, but i have a manual trans.

Also, with "lift to shift" being annoying, Id still get a RIPP if i had an auto. Ill tell you why, i rarely floor the pedal. pay attention to how often you actually floor it, and keep it floored.

[UselessPickles]

Ill tell you why, i rarely floor the pedal. pay attention to how often you actually floor it, and keep it floored.

That may change once you have forced induction :)

I floor it through 1st and into 2nd gear at least once per day when weather conditions permit. Stupid wet and/or snowy roads have been causing some epic battles between traction control and the turbo. The turbo usually wins before I even get to full throttle.

[Timmy]

...I could feel bypass valve open/close as I adjusted the throttle... [snip, snip] Have any of you supercharger guys experienced anything like this?

One thing I like about the turbo is that boost is not an on/off thing.

Well, for what it's worth, your experience is 100% opposite of mine. In a different application, I get tired of the turbo. I have driven turbo'd VW's and Audi's now for about 13 years, and every time I punch it across an intersection, I sit there and yell at the car "go you stupid fast car, go" and then when it hits 2500 RPM, it's like a kick in the butt. There is NOTHING linear about it. < 2500 RPM, no power, > 2500 RPM, full power. Granted, my Audi's are all chipped to higher boost, so the boost hitting is more dramatic then what Audi originally programmed in.

Now shift to my driving experience of Audi's with superchargers (the S4, A6, and A7.) There is NO on/off in the experience. The supercharger is dead quiet and fully smooth and linear in it's delivery. Happens to be the same SC that Magnuson is using.

Pickless, did you look through that PDF that I posted a link to in this thread? I think you would find the graphs at the bottom most interesting in the comparison of naturally aspirated vs. turbo vs. supercharger and why Eaton is showing an SC to be a better application for maximum MPG and maximum performance.

[UselessPickles]

We're talking about different things with on/off vs linear transition of power. You're talking about power delivery at full throttle, through the rpm range. Yes, in that situation, my turbo kicks in pretty quickly in the 2500-3500 rpm range. Not like an on/off switch, but a very quick ramp up in acceleration.

I'm talking about part-throttle throttle control under higher load at more stable engine speeds. If I'm at freeway speeds around 3000 rpm with my turbo, there's a very smooth relationship between pedal position and boost/acceleration. With the 3.8 Sprintex kit, I could feel a small harsh transition when the bypass valve opened/closed as I smoothly pressed/released the pedal through a certain position.

Yeah, I looked at that PDF. It was pretty cool, but I don't think it's really relevant to the decision of adding an aftermarket bolt-on FI kit onto an existing NA engine. That document was about using FI with a smaller engine to get similar power with better fuel economy compared to a larger NA engine. We're talking about adding FI to gain not-entirely-necessary additional power on an already completely engineered stand-alone OEM NA engine.

More importantly, that document is about a small engine with FI developed together as a complete OEM package fully integrated with the ECM. In OEM packages, the ECM has control over the bypass valve (for superchargers) or wastegate (for turbos) to have much better control over when boost comes in to play and how much of it. A bolt-on kit will never be as refined as an OEM system, because the ECM for an NA engine does not have the programming in it to electronically control a bypass valve or wastegate in relation to everything else going on with the engine. Bolt-on kits must rely on simple actuators controlled by manifold pressure, calibrated by choosing which strength spring to use in the actuator. This gives much less control and requires more compromises to ensure that significant boost does not come it at times that would be incompatible with the operation of the ECM programming that doesn't have the flexibility to be fully aware of boost transitions in its calculations. For example: closed-loop mode.