Are Jeeps getting to street civilized?

[KaiserBill]

It seems to me that Jeeps are getting way too at home on the streets and requiring far too much in the way of secondary parts for off road capabilities? To me the most fun sort of vehicles are the ones that make you the driver drive them and not just a glorified passenger in them with way too much technology. Where is the experience driving going at this point in time is my question? When will jeeps be push button vehicles with self-navigation and total computer control? How many cars now have self parallel parking, brake assistance, ect and so on. These are not features that make you a better master of your vehicle they are features that make the vehicle a master of you! But, it is true, I have been called a neo-luddite before. However, seriously, I'm reading these posts of the money being dropped into a vehicle like the Jeep JKU and I wonder why doesn't Jeep make the vehicle from the factor more off-road capable? Or why didn't the MB Unimog ever take off in America? All good questions if you ask me.

[Snarf77]

The Jeep JK Rubicon is arguably the most capable off road vehicle produced in America. My stock Rubi would go places my built CJ couldn't dream of going. Many gadgets are required to meet federal safety regulations and the ones on my Rubicon turn off with the push of a button.

Look at the acquisition cost of the vehicles you drive. They are an order of magnitude more expensive than a JK and far less capable for any regular use. Its all a matter of perspective.

[KaiserBill]

You mean $1750.00 plus tax and auction fee on a Government Auction Site or the price that the US Government originally paid in 1970 for a truck designed in 1949?

Here is what I have to say about American vehicles-- sub par in a lot of respects. Take a look at the capabilities of the Unimog 5000 series (I think MB is also screwing up the works by overly complicating the design with needless features) or Tatra's T 810 series trucks and you will find vehicles that have amazing capabilities off-road.

As for the gadgets-- I don't see how sat-radio, power mirrors, cruise control, climate control, alarm system, USB, Power Outlets, sat-navigation, alpine sound system, a built in thermometer, compass, heated seats, humidity sensor and so on and so forth makes for a safer vehicle.

ABS great for the highway not so good on the trail, Airbags-- also great on the highway-- no so good on the trial. But okay, I'll say those are at least productive features.

But what features would make the Jeep in my eyes more attractive are the following:

CTIS
Portal Axles
Driver controlled differential locks in any range at any speed.
Transfer Case with operator controlled locking differential in it. That way you could run say 4x4 at speeds above 55mph without putting as much stress on the system. Then when you want to lock up the entire system for hard terrain bam-- hit the locks and 100% traction is afforded to you.
Ground Clearance about 11 inches minimum.
Turbo Diesel Engine with about 200hp and 520ft-lbs of torque operating at 2400-2600rpm with a load on it.
Gearbox-- 8spd manual type unit.
Capable fording 48 inches from the factory.
Grade Capability: >100% on certain surfaces.
Side Slope: >30%

That to me would be the ideal Jeep vehicle. Something that is basically a 75% off-road and 25% happy on the road type truck. And you frankly, I would leave out all the electronic do-dads that are really only for comfort out of the design. From my perspective those things are basically just things designed to sell a vehicle to people who plan on being in traffic all day long. Instead I say build a vehicle that is about really going places way out of the way.

[Snarf77]

Yes, I was talking about the original acquisition cost. If I buy a used JK in 20 years, maybe it will be $1750 plus auction fees. Meh.

All my points stand. There is zero market for a portal axle Jeep with any of those features, and there never will be. Would I have one? YUP. Would I pay what it would cost to build one of those? Nope. You probably wouldn't either!

BTW, you can buy a base-model jeep without any of those annoying comforts. I like my USB outlet.

[Timmy]

Truth be told, the Wrangler is very capable out of the box. I remember when I had new, factory TJ. I went off-roading with a bunch of guys that had lifted old school Chevy Blazer's, Ford Bronco's, built CJ's, etc. I remember there was one section of a the trail that was pretty steep and crazy and they were all having trouble getting up it. I came tooling up with my wife, dog in the back seat, and just navigated nice and slow up it no problem. When we got to the top, they were all amazed at how much easier I made it compared to them (they literally were taking running starts at it and bouncing all around.)

As for the upgrades... It is the upgrades that makes the Wrangler so fun. I would hate to see Wrangler after Wrangler on the streets that has a factory 4" lift and 35" tires, all decked out. Shoot, as it stands, I get a little irritated to see the stupid AEV built Wranglers sitting at the Jeep dealership, where they just shipped them off to Michigan to get the AEV treatment, bring them back and slap an extra $20k on to the price. When I see the people driving the dealer-made AEV Jeeps around town, I just sit there and think "loser." Not because their Jeep isn't good, but because they don't know why it is good, what it can do, why you put certain parts on, and why, for the love of all things on this planet, you DON'T NEED A DAMN SNORKLE if you buy an AEV off the lot because you are tooooo much of pansy to ever submerge your Jeep into 4 feet of water!

So, I guess to answer your question... I like the Wrangler just as it is. It's a great off-road vehicle right off the lot, and 90% of the people never take it off pavement. For those that do, you *get* to upgrade it however you like, so that every built Wrangler on the road starts to take on it's own personality. That doesn't mean Chrysler couldn't step it up and make it even more customizable, actually fix their damn electrical junk so it doesn't fail, etc. but for the most part, there really is no other vehicle like it on the market right now. What I would LOVE to see is if Toyota would ditch their stupid full-sized Landcruiser and go back to the old-school Landcruiser that was an actual competitor to the Wrangler, with removable top and a roll-bar. Then we'd actually have a competitor to Jeep to help push them harder. Can you honestly imagine Toyota building a Wrangler competitor today? The thing would be dependable beyond belief.

[KaiserBill]

Yes, I was talking about the original acquisition cost. If I buy a used JK in 20 years, maybe it will be $1750 plus auction fees. Meh.

All my points stand. There is zero market for a portal axle Jeep with any of those features, and there never will be. Would I have one? YUP. Would I pay what it would cost to build one of those? Nope. You probably wouldn't either!

BTW, you can buy a base-model jeep without any of those annoying comforts. I like my USB outlet.



Well the US Armed Forces procured my vehicle in 1970 for the amazingly stupid price of $72,560.00. Which I have to say was about 80% profit for either Kaiser-Jeep or Am General depending on exactly how far long it was in the production process during the big switch over. Either way the US Armed Forces paid top dollar for a truck that designed in 1949 and not sufficiently upgraded between 1956-1993 until the Am General ESP M35A3 program was initiated. And then they really paid out of the nose to make then nearly 50 year old design up to 30 year old standards! So, if were to take a tip from the Pentagon the Jeep JKU would have 30 year old technology and cost three times the price you paid for it.

There is only one reason you don't have portal axles on the Jeep right now-- the cost of retooling the factory at Dana to make the axles is considered to expensive. So you get standard Dana 30 and Dana 44's with modest changes because it is far more cost effective for Dana to make as few alterations to the axle design as possible while getting the best price for them.

And the Base Jeep is sort of a joke. As for the USB Outlet it is really rather needless.

[KaiserBill]

Truth be told, the Wrangler is very capable out of the box. I remember when I had new, factory TJ. I went off-roading with a bunch of guys that had lifted old school Chevy Blazer's, Ford Bronco's, built CJ's, etc. I remember there was one section of a the trail that was pretty steep and crazy and they were all having trouble getting up it. I came tooling up with my wife, dog in the back seat, and just navigated nice and slow up it no problem. When we got to the top, they were all amazed at how much easier I made it compared to them (they literally were taking running starts at it and bouncing all around.)

As for the upgrades... It is the upgrades that makes the Wrangler so fun. I would hate to see Wrangler after Wrangler on the streets that has a factory 4" lift and 35" tires, all decked out. Shoot, as it stands, I get a little irritated to see the stupid AEV built Wranglers sitting at the Jeep dealership, where they just shipped them off to Michigan to get the AEV treatment, bring them back and slap an extra $20k on to the price. When I see the people driving the dealer-made AEV Jeeps around town, I just sit there and think "loser." Not because their Jeep isn't good, but because they don't know why it is good, what it can do, why you put certain parts on, and why, for the love of all things on this planet, you DON'T NEED A DAMN SNORKLE if you buy an AEV off the lot because you are tooooo much of pansy to ever submerge your Jeep into 4 feet of water!

So, I guess to answer your question... I like the Wrangler just as it is. It's a great off-road vehicle right off the lot, and 90% of the people never take it off pavement. For those that do, you *get* to upgrade it however you like, so that every built Wrangler on the road starts to take on it's own personality. That doesn't mean Chrysler couldn't step it up and make it even more customizable, actually fix their damn electrical junk so it doesn't fail, etc. but for the most part, there really is no other vehicle like it on the market right now. What I would LOVE to see is if Toyota would ditch their stupid full-sized Landcruiser and go back to the old-school Landcruiser that was an actual competitor to the Wrangler, with removable top and a roll-bar. Then we'd actually have a competitor to Jeep to help push them harder. Can you honestly imagine Toyota building a Wrangler competitor today? The thing would be dependable beyond belief.


Can I ask a question how much offroading do you really do?

[gbaumann]

As for the upgrades... It is the upgrades that makes the Wrangler so fun. I would hate to see Wrangler after Wrangler on the streets that has a factory 4" lift and 35" tires, all decked out. Shoot, as it stands, I get a little irritated to see the stupid AEV built Wranglers sitting at the Jeep dealership, where they just shipped them off to Michigan to get the AEV treatment, bring them back and slap an extra $20k on to the price. When I see the people driving the dealer-made AEV Jeeps around town, I just sit there and think "loser." Not because their Jeep isn't good, but because they don't know why it is good, what it can do, why you put certain parts on, and why, for the love of all things on this planet, you DON'T NEED A DAMN SNORKLE if you buy an AEV off the lot because you are tooooo much of pansy to ever submerge your Jeep into 4 feet of water!.

I much prefer discussion of mods and seeing how we are all getting the parts on and then reviewing them. That said, I take this personally Timmy. When I was a teenager I laid under a Chevy Blazer with my brother and got it up high enough to stuff 44" monster mudders under it. Those were the days when you were cool if you had a Rancho suspension. Multiple shock towers were all the rage. I hand wired the Aris (Aeres?) light bar and installed a row of KC Daylighters. Yes, I'm 47 years old! As I've previously posted we had several GM muscle cars over the years and I have hundreds of hours of engine building and auto restoration under my belt. We even pulled a '51 willys out of a barn in connecticut and restored it to military specs - right down to getting a NOS flat four from Sarafan Auto in New York (Kaiser Bill may have heard of them, they sold military surplus). It was a body off restoration. I'll post a pic if I can find one (and scan or take a pic of it!). I'm the last guy who deserves to be referred to as a "loser" because I can afford to walk into a Jeep dealership and buy and AEV truck from the floor. I know - I didn't do that. I bought the truck and have been making changes over time. And no - I won't put a snorkel on it because I won't take it in 4 ft. of water. I know I fit into the "other" category in your post. But let's go a little easy on the folks that buy them pre-built and pay the premium. They may be quite knowledgeable and capable but able to or need to prioritize their time differently. I think a dealer AEV could be a great cross country overland vehicle because it's serviceable at so many dealerships. Now, if you want to go after the guys who buy Porsches or Ferraris to compensate for something I'll join right in with you!

[Timmy]

... I know I fit into the "other" category in your post. But let's go a little easy on the folks that buy them pre-built and pay the premium. They may be quite knowledgeable and capable but able to or need to prioritize their time differently. I think a dealer AEV could be a great cross country overland vehicle because it's serviceable at so many dealerships. Now, if you want to go after the guys who buy Porsches or Ferraris to compensate for something I'll join right in with you!

Haha, my apologies, I didn't mean to offend you or anyone that could and would purchase an AEV built one from the dealer. Before I bought my Jeep, I would look at the AEV built ones and think "how cool!" Now that I have my own and I'm building it up myself, I sort of get the "built" side of the hobby more than I did before. Like you, I could have purchased an AEV new off the lot. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would purchase a Jeep fully built up already and actually use it as intended, I know I would have, but they are few and far between. Also... Notice my "loser" comment was was referring to people who "don't know why it is good" [referring to the AEV build.] You clearly know your Jeeps, so you are far from the loser I'm referring to ;-)

[KaiserBill]

I much prefer discussion of mods and seeing how we are all getting the parts on and then reviewing them. That said, I take this personally Timmy. When I was a teenager I laid under a Chevy Blazer with my brother and got it up high enough to stuff 44" monster mudders under it. Those were the days when you were cool if you had a Rancho suspension. Multiple shock towers were all the rage. I hand wired the Aris (Aeres?) light bar and installed a row of KC Daylighters. Yes, I'm 47 years old! As I've previously posted we had several GM muscle cars over the years and I have hundreds of hours of engine building and auto restoration under my belt. We even pulled a '51 willys out of a barn in connecticut and restored it to military specs - right down to getting a NOS flat four from Sarafan Auto in New York (Kaiser Bill may have heard of them, they sold military surplus). It was a body off restoration. I'll post a pic if I can find one (and scan or take a pic of it!). I'm the last guy who deserves to be referred to as a "loser" because I can afford to walk into a Jeep dealership and buy and AEV truck from the floor. I know - I didn't do that. I bought the truck and have been making changes over time. And no - I won't put a snorkel on it because I won't take it in 4 ft. of water. I know I fit into the "other" category in your post. But let's go a little easy on the folks that buy them pre-built and pay the premium. They may be quite knowledgeable and capable but able to or need to prioritize their time differently. I think a dealer AEV could be a great cross country overland vehicle because it's serviceable at so many dealerships. Now, if you want to go after the guys who buy Porsches or Ferraris to compensate for something I'll join right in with you!


You're same age as my older brothers. I helped one do all the work on his CJ7 back in the mid eighties I was about 8-9 at the time. Then when I was 16 I bought a Willy's Cj2 I found for sale for 200 bucks. I drove that for like a summer and winter before it fell apart-- not illegal for road use but what the cops don't see won't hurt them. For awhile.

[gbaumann]

You're same age as my older brothers. I helped one do all the work on his CJ7 back in the mid eighties I was about 8-9 at the time. Then when I was 16 I bought a Willy's Cj2 I found for sale for 200 bucks. I drove that for like a summer and winter before it fell apart-- not illegal for road use but what the cops don't see won't hurt them. For awhile.

I don't think I was a "teen" when we dragged the M-38 home. And from the moment we finished it my brother and I wanted an M-37!

[gbaumann]

Haha, my apologies, I didn't mean to offend you or anyone that could and would purchase an AEV built one from the dealer. Before I bought my Jeep, I would look at the AEV built ones and think "how cool!" Now that I have my own and I'm building it up myself, I sort of get the "built" side of the hobby more than I did before. Like you, I could have purchased an AEV new off the lot. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would purchase a Jeep fully built up already and actually use it as intended, I know I would have, but they are few and far between. Also... Notice my "loser" comment was was referring to people who "don't know why it is good" [referring to the AEV build.] You clearly know your Jeeps, so you are far from the loser I'm referring to ;-)

I hear you. And I totally understand the "built" side of things. I'm seriously addicted to this. I tell people who ask me about my truck because they are considering buying a Wrangler that they are not considering buying a vehicle. They are considering joining a cult! I remember when I graduated from law school the hot clients to land in NYC were hedge funds. If you were on a legal team that "designed" a security instrument you were a rock star. (side note - all of those newly crafted securities were derivatives which didn't work out all that well). Now I feel like if you design and fabricate something for your build you're the rock star. Anyone can buy it off the shelf and bolt it on. But who among us can make the next mod.? That's why I like JeepLab. I feel like sharing with the group here and watching what you guys are doing will "spring forth" an idea and we can make it happen. I'm really giving thought to a "light" JK. Along the lines of Ross' King of Hammers buggy idea but streetable. I found a fabricator out there making aluminum JKU bodies. It's a start.

[KaiserBill]

I don't think I was a "teen" when we dragged the M-38 home. And from the moment we finished it my brother and I wanted an M-37!

The Power Wagon is a cool looking truck. Dodge Six in it isn't a winner! That would need to go.

[KaiserBill]

My brother does the fixing-- I do the breaking!

[Anotheruserid]

If there was an annual "talking out your ass" award given on this board I know who the front runner for my vote would be. In fact, he'd probably win one for every thread he posts in.

[KaiserBill]

If there was an annual "talking out your ass" award given on this board I know who the front runner for my vote would be. In fact, he'd probably win one for every thread he posts in.

So who would that be?

[Snarf77]

So who would that be?

Probably me. :)

[KaiserBill]

So how many people have played this song for you after hearing the name of your truck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYkbTyHXwbs

I think I saw you out on the trail-- I would have to fire it up on the loud speakers!!!!

sort of like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzLquFQZ-8

[Snarf77]

So how many people have played this song for you after hearing the name of your truck?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYkbTyHXwbs

I think I saw you out on the trail-- I would have to fire it up on the loud speakers!!!!

sort of like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRzLquFQZ-8

I think that Ross has that as my Ringtone. We named it that for obvious reasons - a bit tongue in cheek.

[KaiserBill]

I think that Ross has that as my Ringtone. We named it that for obvious reasons - a bit tongue in cheek.

I couldn't name a truck that brings up imagines of Rick Springfield myself. Rick is part of the dark times of 1980's pop-culture.