Another Turbo Option from Prodigy Performance?

[UselessPickles]

Prodigy is testing a different turbo with their kit. This one is a Precision instead of a Garrett.



Wicked acceleration with Precision Turbo. Still testing.
So far 0-60 4.26 Seconds!

Source: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/photos/a.225539780872996.51616.210234079070233/816701538423481/?type=1&theater

0-60 mph in 4.26 seconds! That's ridiculous!

Not sure yet whether this is part of Stage 3 (does it require the custom forged pistons they showed off a while ago?), or if it can directly swap in for the Garrett in the Stage 1/2 kits.

I did get confirmation that this Precision turbo spools up quicker and at lower rpms than the Garrett!

If this doesn't require forged pistons or any other internal engine mods, I'm going to have a hard time choosing between upgrading my turbo or buying tires/wheels!

[KaiserBill]

I would skip the Prodigy Pretend Performance go with this instead:

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/chevy/dailydriver/tt/dds_355_tt.pdf

[FLIPmeOVER]

Garrett is a household name. Ive never heard of the other ones. Does that factor in? or does the other have the same pedigree?

it smells like the garret got too expensive for prodigy, or these other guys offered them a deal. whats really going on here is my question.

[KaiserBill]

Garrett is a household name. Ive never heard of the other ones. Does that factor in? or does the other have the same pedigree?

it smells like the garret got too expensive for prodigy, or these other guys offered them a deal. whats really going on here is my question.

Garrett is expensive, but so are Precision Turbos. Precision turbos are a big-big name in the Diesel Engine Tractor Pulling world wide. Personally, I would use Turbonetics,

[UselessPickles]

Precision is a big name in the after-market turbo world. Quick summary of what I read about them:

They started as a Garrett distributor. Then started making custom modifications to the turbos and reselling the modded Garretts (made their own compressor wheels, etc). When they got big into that and advertising that they made the turbos better, Garrett didn't like that and ended the distribution license. Precision then had to make the whole turbo, including parts of it that they had no prior experience with. They had reliability issues early on, but have improved since then and are now a respected turbo manufacturer.

You can't directly compare Garrett to Precision, because there aren't any turbos with the same exact specs from both companies. The result is that for a given engine, setup, power goals, etc., you may find that Garrett happens to have a combination of specs available that is more ideal for you than anything from Precision, or vice verse.

Based on the limited info so far (0-60 mph in 3.26s, spools quicker, spools at lower rpm, still being tested), it sure sounds to me like cost is not the primary driver for this.

[Bkeef]

Not sure yet whether this is part of Stage 3 (does it require the custom forged pistons
!

Pickles.. Keep you,posted. With luck I should be rolling late next week

BK

[UselessPickles]

I got confirmation that this Precision turbo is a direct bolt-in replacement for the Garrett. It's actually more expensive than the Garrett. It will be an upcharge option for the turbo kit.

They haven't done a dyno comparison yet for a solid objective comparison, but it sounds promising.

[Snarf77]

I wonder if they'd do something like an exchange for existing Prodigy customers - that would be something right?

[UselessPickles]

If it turns out to be as good as it sounds so far, they'll simply be finally delivering on the promise of "huge low end power" that they advertised in early marketing materials. Only seems fair to help us early adopters out who would have gladly paid a bit extra for the upgrade option if it had been available.

[JeepLab]

*****MODERATED****

Im trying to keep an open forum where all ideas are accepted. however, there is too much back and forth with things that are slightly off topic, and then the response to those posts. It bores me, and I'm certain others are bored by it also.

So, a message to all - Stick to the topic, and if someone posts something you don't like or feel is not relevent, don't respond to it. keep the thread moving as it should. I'll clean out the stuff thats off topic.

****Carry On!****

[Snarf77]

If it turns out to be as good as it sounds so far, they'll simply be finally delivering on the promise of "huge low end power" that they advertised in early marketing materials. Only seems fair to help us early adopters out who would have gladly paid a bit extra for the upgrade option if it had been available.

I'm with you. I'm generally happy with the turbo system. When the boost comes online the jeep is a rocketship. I cant' fathom the feel of being on boost throughout the entire functional driving range, if boost is achieved at or below 2000rpm. I would/will be first in line to try out the new precision turbo if it is either direct replacement or minimal effort to swap.

[UselessPickles]

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/zero_to_sixty_424.jpg

Source: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/photos/a.225539780872996.51616.210234079070233/820225971404371/?type=1&theater

I was told that this was with 2 adults in the Jeep and at 83*F

[Snarf77]

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/zero_to_sixty_424.jpg

Source: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/photos/a.225539780872996.51616.210234079070233/820225971404371/?type=1&theater

I was told that this was with 2 adults in the Jeep and at 83*F


That's ridiculously fast. At that point you're as fast or faster than many many sports cars. Cars meant for speed.

Some excaples under/around $40k:

Hyundai Genesis 3.8 R-spec coupe, $34k, 348hp, 5.0 seconds
Chrysler 300 SRT8, $5k 470hp, 4.3 seconds
Mitsubishi Lancer Evoluation GSR, $42k, 4.8 seconds
Chevy Camaro SS1LE 43k 4.3 seconds
Ford Mustang GT PRemium $40k 4.3 seconds
Subaru impresa WRX Special Edition, $30k, 4.7 seconds

[boosted1]

The Precision Turbo option has delivered excellent performance for us so far. This is a much more aggressive setup. Fuel economy is down some but maybe that's because I can't keep my foot out of it. It truly is sports car fast. I am trying to get the time to make some video of the setup so people can experience what the system looks like piece by piece and what it sounds like. Prodigy Performance has delivers best in class performance. Videos soon to come. Do some research on Precision Turbo. All of the big names in High HP run Precision units. Garrett in my opinion is considered a reliable workhorse where as Precision is considered a more Extreme performance Version. IMO

[boosted1]

We will also be testing a performance torque converter with a higher stall speed. I am expecting this to lower 0-60 times even further. (sub 4s although traction will now be a big factor) We also expect this to bring the Prodigy Jeep into the 12 second quarter mile times! (currently 13.3) I am being very careful to remain consistent on testing numbers and not to ever skew the results as to never deceive the public. If you have any questions let me know. As for now the schedule goes as follows.

1. Video 0-60
2. Video product walk through
3. Video sound clips
4. Dyno with Precision turbo at stage 2 boost level set by wastegate spring 0.5bar (no boost controller)
5. Install torque converter
6. Video track runs and achieve first World's First Wrangler in the 12s
7. Install boost controller, return to dyno and achieve World's first Wrangler over 400RWHP ++++

Piece of cake. As long as you have a Prodigy Turbo kit LOL

[UselessPickles]

This just keeps getting more interesting/exciting!


We will also be testing a performance torque converter with a higher stall speed.

No love for us with manual transmission Jeeps? Is there any possibility for improvements, such as:

* Clutch and flywheel kit (stronger clutch, lighter flywheel). The stock flywheel must be very heavy, because a Dodge Caravan with the same exact engine free-revs like a Formula 1 car compared to my Wrangler. It would be interesting to try to reach a good compromise between lighter flywheel, while still reasonably resisting stalling in slow off-road situations.

* Mods to the manual trans to make it shift more quickly? I think it takes me almost a full second to shift from 1st to 2nd gear because of the long throw and how long it takes for the 2nd gear synchros to do their job. Maybe I just need to be more forceful to make the shift happen faster?



7. Install boost controller, return to dyno and achieve World's first Wrangler over 400RWHP ++++

Do you expect to achieve this reliably on stock engine internals, or is this where the forged pistons become necessary/recommended?


You seem to have left a very important step out of your schedule: Send UselessPickles a Precision turbo for back-to-back dyno comparison between the Garrett and Precision on the same vehicle, same dyno :) I also need to make a boost curve chart for the Precision.

[Snarf77]

You seem to have left a very important step out of your schedule: Send UselessPickles a Precision turbo for back-to-back dyno comparison between the Garrett and Precision on the same vehicle, same dyno :) I also need to make a boost curve chart for the Precision.

*raises hand*

Jeeplab's Prodigy turbo has been on the dnyo thrice and will gladly take Pickle's system and test it first! :)

Seriously though - I'm highly considering picking one up as MPG doesn't concern me (though mine actually improved with the turbo) and drive-ability is everything. Keep us updated.

[FLIPmeOVER]

pickles jeep is a 2 door soft top right? stock wheels? Pretty much every other jeep in america is heavier than that rig. I think its unrealistic to say that a prodigy turbo promises a 4.24 0-60.

Snarf's turbo on the other hand, lifted with 37s would be more of a barometer for the rest of us. Snarf hook up your unit and see if you get what pickles got.

[UselessPickles]

Because of how much variation there is in mods, tire size, 2 vs 4 doors, etc, no one can promise any specific acceleration performance numbers for any performance mod. Prodigy is not promising YOUR jeep will do 0-60 in 4.24s. What Prodigy is doing, though, is testing with a stock 2-door Wrangler, which is a solid baseline configuration of the vehicle. This allows you to compare to reported 0-60 and 1/4 mile results from car websites/magazines (which are also based on stock vehicles).

Stock 2-door Wranglers are reported to do 0-60 in the 6.8-7.2s range, and 1/4 mile around 15.5-15.8s.

[UselessPickles]

pickles jeep ...
... see if you get what pickles got.

I did not get this 4.24s 0-60. This is Prodigy's test Jeep with a new/different turbo than what Snarf and I have. It's also an automatic transmission, which is faster than the manual transmission (both Snarf and I have manuals).

[FLIPmeOVER]

do we have a JL 0-60?

[JeepLab]

I dont have access to the JL Turbo. Snarf has it, but im not sure his diablo unit does 0-60s like the one i used when i did the RIPP 0-60.

Snarf....also is very gentle with Jesse's Girl.

Maybe if we all plead he will hook up a video cam and drop the hammer for us.

[UselessPickles]

The InTune (handheld tuner that comes with the Prodigy kit) does not do 0-60 or any other performance measurements like the Trinity does.

If you have an Android phone/tablet, you can get a bluetooth OBDII adapter and purchase the "Torque" app, which uses the OBDII adapter for monitoring, data logging, and also does 0-60 and 1/4 mile measurements.

[Snarf77]

The InTune (handheld tuner that comes with the Prodigy kit) does not do 0-60 or any other performance measurements like the Trinity does.

If you have an Android phone/tablet, you can get a bluetooth OBDII adapter and purchase the "Torque" app, which uses the OBDII adapter for monitoring, data logging, and also does 0-60 and 1/4 mile measurements.

I have a BT adapter and paid torque app. I might have to do a 0-60 video. Depends on how much i value my clutch. I'm guessing its around 6 seconds or perhaps just under. But..my guess means nothing. its truly all about the launch and a 1st to second shift. I think the real beauty of the turbo is the passing performance..call it 20-60 or 30-90. That's where your drive-ability comes into play.

[jeepsking]

Just saw the video Lil red on drag strip posted on prodigy facebook site (impressive ) 13.2 sec.

i dont know if its pression 6266 because it's look like but it may have prodigy special modified compressor or turbine.

Let's wait for the upgrade price.

Anyway i will remove my kit because summer just started here and the temp reaching above 100F. I will fix some bent area and may be apply a ceramic coat to the exhaust rather than wrap it For the next season (might be with the mighty pression setup and some real tune).

[JeepLab]

I have a BT adapter and paid torque app. I might have to do a 0-60 video. Depends on how much i value my clutch. I'm guessing its around 6 seconds or perhaps just under. But..my guess means nothing. its truly all about the launch and a 1st to second shift. I think the real beauty of the turbo is the passing performance..call it 20-60 or 30-90. That's where your drive-ability comes into play.

Gotta get there in second gear or you have no shot at 6 seconds. I was only ever under 6 seconds COMPLETELY pushing 2nd gear into the red. If you have to shift again, you will not make it.

I think you might be screwed regardless with 4.88s. You might not do 60 in second gear.... Pickles? the math?

[UselessPickles]

I think you might be screwed regardless with 4.88s. You might not do 60 in second gear.... Pickles? the math?

Depends on tire size. I hit 64 mph at the end of 2nd gear with my 3.21 gears and 28.5" (actual size) stock tires.

So a quick calculation shows that you would need at least 40.6" (actual size) tires to hit 60 mph in 2nd with 4.88s

[UselessPickles]

Here's a picture of the Precision turbo:

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/precision_turbo.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/precision_turbo.jpg

Source: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/photos/a.225539780872996.51616.210234079070233/824587847634850/?type=1&theater


And here's a teaser video Prodigy posted on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/videos/vb.210234079070233/823225981104370/?type=2&theater



A bit unrelated, but still a new thing from Prodigy, is that they now use TIG welding for their pipes:

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/tig_welds.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/tig_welds.jpg

Source: https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/photos/a.225539780872996.51616.210234079070233/824581974302104/?type=1&theater


Looks quite a bit nicer than the welds on my pipes. I've been told that the pipes cost quite a bit more to manufacture now because of this. I'm guessing this has something to do with the increased prices for the turbo kits on their website.

[UselessPickles]

Some new details about the Precision turbo...


It's a $495 upgrade option at the time of purchase of a turbo kit.

If you already have a turbo kit with the Garrett, it costs $1350 to purchase the Precision turbo by itself.

Unlike the Garrett, the anti-surge porting on the Precision is not optional for the sake of appearances only. It's actually required to avoid compressor surge at lower engine speeds (see holes all around the compressor inlet in the picture I posted earlier).

Prodigy reports that you really feel the Precision "kick in" at about 2000 rpm, compared to the Garrett having a similar feeling at about 3000 rpm. Note that this does not indicate where the turbo starts making max/target boost. In a 2nd gear acceleration, my data logs show target boost with the Garrett at about 4000 rpm: http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/boost_2nd_gear_update2.png. The quick increase in acceleration as boost quickly ramps up is what you really notice/"feel". Since the Precision should spool up more quickly (in addition to at lower rpm) than the Garrett, I'm predicting full/target boost around 2500 rpm in a 2nd gear acceleration.

Prodigy reports that the Precision makes similar peak power in the upper rpm range as the Garrett (about 370 whp +/-). So quicker spooling, more boost/torque/acceleration at lower rpms, without sacrificing the high rpm rush.


And the most exciting piece of info about the Precision turbo: I decided to take one for the team, bite the expensive bullet, and order one to experience for myself. When it arrives, I'll start a new thread and post pictures :) I'll take some side-by-side comparison pics of the Garrett vs Precision when I do the install. One of the first things I'll do after the install is create a new 2nd gear acceleration boost chart so we can see exactly how much sooner/quicker the Precision really spools up.

[Bkeef]

Some new details about the Precision turbo...

[list]
It's a $495 upgrade option at the time of purchase of a turbo kit.

If you already have a turbo kit with the Garrett, it costs $1350 to purchase the Precision turbo by itself.

Unlike the Garrett, the anti-surge porting on the Precision is not optional for the sake of appearances only. It's actually required to avoid compressor surge at lower engine speeds (see holes all around the compressor inlet in the picture I posted earlier).

Prodigy reports that you really feel the Precision "kick in" at about 2000 rpm, compared to the Garrett having a similar feeling at about 3000 rpm. Note that this does not indicate where the turbo starts making max/target boost. In a 2nd gear acceleration, my data logs show target ]

And the most exciting piece of info about the Precision turbo: I decided to take one for the team, bite the expensive bullet, and order one to experience for myself. When it arrives, I'll start a new thread and post pictures :) I'll take some side-by-side comparison pics of the Garrett vs Precision when I do the install. One of the first things I'll do after the install is create a new 2nd gear acceleration boost chart so we can see exactly how much sooner/quicker the Precision really spools up.


Sweet. Looking forward to it.

[Snarf77]

Some new details about the Precision turbo...


It's a $495 upgrade option at the time of purchase of a turbo kit.

If you already have a turbo kit with the Garrett, it costs $1350 to purchase the Precision turbo by itself.

Unlike the Garrett, the anti-surge porting on the Precision is not optional for the sake of appearances only. It's actually required to avoid compressor surge at lower engine speeds (see holes all around the compressor inlet in the picture I posted earlier).

Prodigy reports that you really feel the Precision "kick in" at about 2000 rpm, compared to the Garrett having a similar feeling at about 3000 rpm. Note that this does not indicate where the turbo starts making max/target boost. In a 2nd gear acceleration, my data logs show target boost with the Garrett at about 4000 rpm: http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_stage2/boost_2nd_gear_update2.png. The quick increase in acceleration as boost quickly ramps up is what you really notice/"feel". Since the Precision should spool up more quickly (in addition to at lower rpm) than the Garrett, I'm predicting full/target boost around 2500 rpm in a 2nd gear acceleration.

Prodigy reports that the Precision makes similar peak power in the upper rpm range as the Garrett (about 370 whp +/-). So quicker spooling, more boost/torque/acceleration at lower rpms, without sacrificing the high rpm rush.


And the most exciting piece of info about the Precision turbo: I decided to take one for the team, bite the expensive bullet, and order one to experience for myself. When it arrives, I'll start a new thread and post pictures :) I'll take some side-by-side comparison pics of the Garrett vs Precision when I do the install. One of the first things I'll do after the install is create a new 2nd gear acceleration boost chart so we can see exactly how much sooner/quicker the Precision really spools up.

I'm sure I'll need one shortly thereafter. If you can "feel" the boost hitting at least 500rpm lower, then its likely a worthwhile investment.

[MatthewLee]

This should be an interesting first post... My Prodigy Performance Stage 2 kit with Precision Turbo just arrived today. Should be going on this weekend. I've been lurking in the shadows for some time now and figured I should make an account.

[JeepLab]

This should be an interesting first post... My Prodigy Performance Stage 2 kit with Precision Turbo just arrived today. Should be going on this weekend. I've been lurking in the shadows for some time now and figured I should make an account.

Welcome!

Please give us some pics of your install!

[UselessPickles]

Lucky! You'll be the first to provide consumer feedback on the forums about the Precision. Can't wait to hear about it.

Mine should arrive this weekend, but I won't be able to install until the following weekend (June 28).

[MatthewLee]

Welcome!

Please give us some pics of your install!

I'm doing everything Saturday. I'll send some unboxing pictures tonight when I get it to the shop. I've reviewed the installation procedure and pickles install thread. Is there anything I should be particularly aware of?

[UselessPickles]

Just don't rush, double check everything, and don't assume everything will naturally fall into perfect position without some thought and deliberate effort. Especially all the exhaust pipes.

That's one thing I'm still planning to improve upon while I'm swapping my new turbo in. My air filter currently contacts the plastic wheel well liner. I need to loosen everything up and focus on getting the turbo into perfect position. I think the key to this will be to pre-fit the turbo (with air filter installed) to the downpipe (not connected to anything else) and focus on getting the downpipe oriented perfectly to set the position of the turbo. I think the downpipe mounting brackets should be the first thing to be tightened up and locked into final position.

Pay special attention to routing of various hoses and O2 sensor wires, use zip-ties as necessary to hold things in position to avoid rubbing between hoses and other components. The install instructions don't specify exact routing.

And when trimming the radiator core support to make room for the intercooler hoses, put in the extra effort to test fit the hoses then trim more plastic if necessary to avoid direct contact between the hose and the plastic if possible. That's the other thing I plan on improving with my install during the turbo swap, because my intercooler hoses are pressed firmly against the trimmed plastic right now.

Speaking of the intercooler, I found it much easier to get the intercooler centered and firmly mounted first, THEN attach the passenger side hose to it. This approach is also necessary if you want to properly test fit the hoses to the trimmed plastic. Following the install instructions exactly makes it a bit easier to get the hose attached, but makes it more difficult to get the intercooler centered. Be ready to pop the grill on and off several times as you make small adjustments to get the intercooler perfectly positioned (unless you don't care about perfection). The mounting brackets for the intercooler are flexible and can be bent for more fine tuning of the location/orientation of the intercooler.

Good luck!

[MatthewLee]

Just don't rush, double check everything, and don't assume everything will naturally fall into perfect position without some thought and deliberate effort. Especially all the exhaust pipes.

That's one thing I'm still planning to improve upon while I'm swapping my new turbo in. My air filter currently contacts the plastic wheel well liner. I need to loosen everything up and focus on getting the turbo into perfect position. I think the key to this will be to pre-fit the turbo (with air filter installed) to the downpipe (not connected to anything else) and focus on getting the downpipe oriented perfectly to set the position of the turbo. I think the downpipe mounting brackets should be the first thing to be tightened up and locked into final position.

Pay special attention to routing of various hoses and O2 sensor wires, use zip-ties as necessary to hold things in position to avoid rubbing between hoses and other components. The install instructions don't specify exact routing.

And when trimming the radiator core support to make room for the intercooler hoses, put in the extra effort to test fit the hoses then trim more plastic if necessary to avoid direct contact between the hose and the plastic if possible. That's the other thing I plan on improving with my install during the turbo swap, because my intercooler hoses are pressed firmly against the trimmed plastic right now.

Speaking of the intercooler, I found it much easier to get the intercooler centered and firmly mounted first, THEN attach the passenger side hose to it. This approach is also necessary if you want to properly test fit the hoses to the trimmed plastic. Following the install instructions exactly makes it a bit easier to get the hose attached, but makes it more difficult to get the intercooler centered. Be ready to pop the grill on and off several times as you make small adjustments to get the intercooler perfectly positioned (unless you don't care about perfection). The mounting brackets for the intercooler are flexible and can be bent for more fine tuning of the location/orientation of the intercooler.

Good luck!

Awesome, thank you. I plan on going slow and steady. I'm concerned with getting my old exhaust off. I figured the bolts are going to be a pain. I also have to figure something out with the return to the oil pan because of my skid plate system. I'm also expecting some interference with the new exhaust routing because of the plates as well. We shall see...

[UselessPickles]

Get some PB Blaster and pre-soak all the exhaust bolts first thing on the day of the install. Have a sawz-all or other cutting tool handy just in case. I gave up and just cut through one of my stock exhaust bolts. Some of the bolts holding the exhaust to the engine head are a pain to get to. Hope you have small hands and patience :) Then getting the stock catalytic converters out is like a brain teaser puzzle. Maybe it's easier if you can have the Jeep up on a lift, but I did it all laying on my back under the jeep with the front end on jackstands giving me just a bit of extra room to work.

[2k13jk]

Is anybody having a squeeling noise on there 3.6? i just did my water pump and the squeel is back again im getting really sick of the noise

[UselessPickles]

Look what FedEx brought me today!

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor.jpg

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/turbine.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/turbine.jpg


The registration card indicates that the model number is "5862SP"

First 2 digits are the compressor wheel inducer diameter: 58mm
next 2 digits are the turbine wheel exducer diameter: 62mm
The "SP" just indicates the compressor housing type: "S" style (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet), "P" for ported (anti-surge porting)

This has the T4 tangential .58 A/R turbine housing.

Here's the product page for the 5862 turbo: http://www.precisionturbo.net/products/details/Street-and-Race-Turbocharger---PT5862-CEA-reg-/233


Both the compressor and turbine wheels are machined from solid pieces of metal. The compressor wheel is machined from a block of forged aluminum. As far as I know, the Garrett turbo has standard cast compressor and turbine wheels. Here's Precision's marketing about their machined wheels:

Compressor wheel: http://www.precisionturbo.net/tech/Competition-Engineered-Aerodynamics--CEA%C2%AE--Compressor-Wheels/37
Turbine wheel: http://www.precisionturbo.net/tech/Competition-Engineered-Aerodynamics--CEA%C2%AE--Turbine-Wheels/41

Here's a closeup of my compressor wheel. The machining marks are visible:

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor_wheel.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor_wheel.jpg


I can't see any machining marks on the turbine wheel, so maybe the turbine wheels are put through some smoothing/finishing process, or maybe the machining of the compressor wheels is intentionally more coarse for some aerodynamics reason? I did find some pics of Precision's old vs new turbine wheels and confirmed that mine definitely appears to be the newer "CEA" turbine wheel.



Is anybody having a squeeling noise on there 3.6? i just did my water pump and the squeel is back again im getting really sick of the noise

This should probably be a new thread. Seems quite unrelated to the new Precision turbo. But, no, I don't have an annoying squealing noise.

[MatthewLee]

The exhaust bolts came out without any issues at all. Turned like butter. I spun them out with my hands. The catalytic converters practically fell out... Everything else so far has been Hell. Nothing seems to line up at the front end. Everything loosely installed and my Turbo sitting so far back the supplied silicone hose won't reach around the front for the intercooler. And now I have to remove my winch from my bumper to drill holes for the intercooler. Once we realized that, we just quit for the day. It's1a.m. and I need a shower.... Tomorrow.....

[UselessPickles]

Definitely need to get the turbo and exhaust all tightened up into position before attempting to connect the intercooler hoses. Hopefully a fresh start today with a clear mind will cause it all to make sense :)

[UselessPickles]

Just noticed the box the turbo came in has a barcode sticker with the following: "5862 SP CEA-1 JB W/ TH5862A"

That's good confirmation that it has the "CEA" wheels. The "JB" is for "Journal Bearing" (i.e., not ball bearing). Not sure what the "TH5862A" means. I'd guess that the "TH" is for "Turbine Housing", and "5862A" means "housing style A for the 5862 turbo"?

Maybe if the weather is good enough this week for me to ride my motorcycle to work several days in a row, I can do the install spread across multiple evenings and get it all done before the weekend :)

[Pznivy]

so can you tell the difference with the new turbo?

is the tune better?

Im waiting on a positive review.

[UselessPickles]

I haven't installed the new turbo yet (hopefully on Sunday), and MatthewLee never had the Garrett, so he won't be able to compare. Still waiting to hear if he finished the install, then maybe he'll be able to comment on driveability in general.

[MatthewLee]

Hey guys. I finished the install. At first I was having a lot of issues that turned out to be that the map sensor was not plugged in correctly. The pigtail they send will go on either way since its not originally designed together but does work. There's a blue plastic sleeve inside the plug that is keyed but mine was flipped. Not sure how that happened but I believe when my buddy test fit it and realized it was tight he went to try the plug the other way and the blue sleeve stayed on the other plug. It then went on the wrong way easily.

After diagnosing and coming through that issue it ran pretty good. I have smoke coming from somewhere in the engine bay though. Then I now get an "engine oil pressure control circuit performance/stuck off" trouble code in. So I believe I have a leak underneath the intake manifold where the oil supply line for the Turbo was installed. I'm waiting to hear back from Dan to pull it off and check.

I'll give more updates as I make progress. I want to give a solid review on Performance so I'm waiting until I get all the bugs worked out.

[UselessPickles]

So I believe I have a leak underneath the intake manifold where the oil supply line for the Turbo was installed.

Bummer. At least it will probably be much easier/quicker to remove the intake manifold the second time, now that you're aware of all the little things that need to be disconnected.

As horrible as it sounds, I really hope your problem is a simple leak at one of those connections. It will be a pain to remove the intake manifold, but at least it will be an easy positive ID of the source of the problem, and should be easily solved by re-tightening the problem connection and/or re-applying new thread seal tape (make sure you wrap in the correct direction).

[MatthewLee]

Okay, so a little update. First off, I'd like to apologize for my slow posting. A more than full time job and hobby don't jive right now.

I decided to get under the Jeep to find the oil first. Easy find. It's the spot with all the black oil burned onto the exhaust lol It was just behind the oil pan. The catch can drain was leaking and blowing back onto the exhaust cross pipe. Which explains why I only saw it going down the road and not sitting still. While sitting still it just dripped on the ground.

I tightened my connections up everywhere and topped her off with oil and bam. Problem solved. No more lights.

I can't tell you how relieved I am. The whole time I was telling myself this wasn't going to fix the problem but since it wasn't right I'd go ahead and fix it now. I couldn't be happier.

The Jeep runs great and pulls strong. I am still talking back and forth with prodigy trying to find out if it's running too rich. I get some backfire after letting off heavy throttle. My "Desired FAR" is .07XX, I understand that's not a wide band reading but rather what the computer is trying to get the Jeep to achieve based on it's available readings. Does that seem right?

[UselessPickles]

I got my Precision turbo installed today.

I also installed a replacement exhaust pipe (original had a cracked weld). I had a hell of a time getting that new pipe tightened up against the engine head without leaking. First time I started the engine, there was a loud/obvious exhaust leak. Spent a lot of time re-tightening the bolts, tightening each one a bit at a time to try to evenly tighten the whole mounting flange. The obvious exhaust leak sound is gone, but I'm still paranoid of having an exhaust leak. Data logging didn't help my paranoia either, because its showing that I only hitting about 7.5 psi boost now (was hitting 8.2-8.4 psi with the Garrett).

So I've driven a bit with the Precision, but I'm going to withhold sharing any thoughts about it until I figure out if I still have an exhaust leak somewhere.



My "Desired FAR" is .07XX

That number doesn't make any sense. Did you type it correctly? I just looked at a data log (old log, from when I had the Garrett installed), and I see values as low as about 10.27 at full throttle, high rpms.

[MatthewLee]

Dang... I posted a reply this morning but I guess it didn't go through.

Pickles, did you replace your head flange gaskets? And were they in 2 pieces when you removed them? They are a 2 piece gasket that is press formed together in the middle. Mine were separated when I removed them so I replaced them. They are only 5 bucks from the dealer. I was worried about leaks too.

In regards to the FAR, yes. Definitely .07XX No fat fingering there. The 1/1 runs close to zero like it should. It's +/- 10. The 2/1 seems to be a little slower to level out but not much. But for some reason the long term reads 12,6XX% under throttle and then jumps to -100 % during coat down when I let off the gas and goes back to 12,6XX % at idle...

None of this really makes sense to me.

[UselessPickles]

Some of the numbers you're talking about sound like fuel trims rather than target air:fuel ratio. Fuel trims can jump around quite a bit. It's how the computer adapts to variances in manufacturing of fuel injectors, variances in reality vs calculated model of reality under current local conditions, etc.

The -100% while coasting down just sounds like the computer cutting fuel while decelerating (no need to burn fuel when decelerating, engine will keep turning without it). That's a normal thing for modern vehicles, although I've never seen -100% trims in my data logs.



Yes, I replaced the head flange gasket when I replaced the exhaust pipe. I think I just under-estimated how much I had to tighten the bolts, and I erred on the side of under-tightening because it would totally suck to strip the threads on the head. I re-tightened, and tightened them more than the first time. The obvious loud leak sound is gone now, but I plan to thoroughly check for leaks to confirm proper installation before I focus on forming/sharing thoughts on how it drives with this new turbo compared to the Garrett. I already experienced previously how a small exhaust leak (pre-turbo) can have a noticeable impact on the performance of the turbo: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install&p=3705&viewfull=1#post3705

[FLIPmeOVER]

Some of the numbers you're talking about sound like fuel trims rather than target air:fuel ratio. Fuel trims can jump around quite a bit. It's how the computer adapts to variances in manufacturing of fuel injectors, variances in reality vs calculated model of reality under current local conditions, etc.

The -100% while coasting down just sounds like the computer cutting fuel while decelerating (no need to burn fuel when decelerating, engine will keep turning without it). That's a normal thing for modern vehicles, although I've never seen -100% trims in my data logs.



Yes, I replaced the head flange gasket when I replaced the exhaust pipe. I think I just under-estimated how much I had to tighten the bolts, and I erred on the side of under-tightening because it would totally suck to strip the threads on the head. I re-tightened, and tightened them more than the first time. The obvious loud leak sound is gone now, but I plan to thoroughly check for leaks to confirm proper installation before I focus on forming/sharing thoughts on how it drives with this new turbo compared to the Garrett. I already experienced previously how a small exhaust leak (pre-turbo) can have a noticeable impact on the performance of the turbo: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install&p=3705&viewfull=1#post3705

how long have you owned the turbo to still be making tweeks to it? Does prodigy give a correct torque spec for bolts? or is it just turn it till it stops?

[MatthewLee]

Some of the numbers you're talking about sound like fuel trims rather than target air:fuel ratio. Fuel trims can jump around quite a bit. It's how the computer adapts to variances in manufacturing of fuel injectors, variances in reality vs calculated model of reality under current local conditions, etc.

The -100% while coasting down just sounds like the computer cutting fuel while decelerating (no need to burn fuel when decelerating, engine will keep turning without it). That's a normal thing for modern vehicles, although I've never seen -100% trims in my data logs.
[/url]

Yes, the 1/1 and 2/1 are the short term readings (left and right side) based off of the O2 sensors. The other with the 12k reading is the long term. It's calculated from the short term history. I was throwing those numbers out there since I believe it's related to why my FAR numbers don't make sense.

I got a DTC this morning that said O2 sensor circuit slow response... Which probably has something to do with my right side short term lagging so far behind the left.

Pickles, would you be interested in taking a look at some DataLogs of mine?

[UselessPickles]

You can look at the history of my install thread to see how long I've had the turbo: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?131-Prodigy-Performance-3-6-Turbo-DIY-Install

First stage 1, then stage 2. Keep in mind that I'm not an experienced installer, so some of the tweaks have simply been corrections to my own mistakes. Other tweaks have just been personal preference.

Sounds like you might possibly have the O2 sensors installed in the incorrect locations? You should have transferred the O2 sensors over to the same exact relative locations from the stock pipes to the turbo pipes. It's a bit confusing because the colors of the sensor's connectors are opposite on one side of the engine (white is upstream on one side, black is upstream on the other side). Need to make sure that the sensors themselves are in the correct locations, and that they are plugged into the correct connectors.

[UselessPickles]

So there was some miscommunication about this new Precision turbo. All the talk of spooling at lower rpms, spooling around 2000-2200 rpm, feeling the turbo kick in around 2200 rpm, etc... I was interpreting that all to be in reference to when boost really ramps up quickly toward max boost during full throttle acceleration. I was wrong.

At full throttle, the boost curve is nearly identical to when/how the Garrett ramps up in boost through the RPMS. In 2nd gear, full throttle starting down near 2000 rpm, I feel the acceleration really ramp up and push me back in my seat right in the 3000-3500 rpm range. Based on my misunderstanding of what Prodigy meant by "feel the turbo kick in", I expected that this shove-you-back-in-your-seat increase in acceleration would happen down around 2500 rpm.

So this is an interesting position to be in. I was initially disappointed and thought something must be wrong with my install causing my turbo to spool up late. I was so focused on it not meeting one specific expectation that I was completely blind to the real benefits. Driving around with my family, my wife and I were in total disagreement. I was saying I didn't really notice a big difference from the Garrett. My wife was saying she could feel a big improvement even from the passenger seat. The big thing she noticed was that it was "much smoother" when we were driving around normally and doing some faster part-throttle acceleration in the mid-rpm range (not flat out full throttle through the entire rpm range). Then I got to a nice straight entrance ramp from a 30 mph road to a 75 mph freeway, dropped to 2nd gear and punched it (probably around 3000 rpm?). My wife let out some PG expletives (kids were in the back seat) then commented on how it took off more quickly than with the old turbo.

Once I got some clarification and stopped focusing on my one incorrect expectation of huge acceleration being available down around 2500 rpm, I started to notice and enjoy the improvements myself. The improvements are actually pretty big, but It's taken me a while to recognize that since my expectations were so different than reality.

Since the full throttle boost curve is not really any different, there's really no data/graphs/charts I can show you to visualize how the Precision turbo is better. It all has to do with how the Precision responds to lower amounts of exhaust flow (part throttle, lower rpms), and how quickly it responds to changes in throttle.

It's really normal daily driving where the improvements are very noticeable. Driving around town and upshifting around/below 3000 rpm, it just feels much better. After upshifting and dropping down to near 2000 rpm in the next gear, the Garrett would feel sluggish/laggy compared to the amount of acceleration you had just before the upshift. The Precision doesn't have that problem. Power delivery just feels more consistent/predictable/linear. This is what my wife was talking about when saying that my driving felt much smoother. With the Garrett, the turbo would just be starting to spool up and increase acceleration just as was about to upshift. The result was often a brief increase in acceleration just before I let off the throttle to upshift, followed by a mismatched (low) amount of acceleration when I got back in the throttle at lower rpms after shifting. It really accentuated the clunkiness of shifting the Jeep's manual transmission during "brisk" part throttle acceleration.

Because the Precision spools up more easily at lower rpms at part throttle, I can often get the daily driving acceleration I want without downshifting, or by downshifting fewer gears than I would with the Garrett. This is a bigger deal for the manual transmission, because it takes effort to downshift. I'm sometimes lazy and don't feel like going through the effort of downshifting just to accelerate a bit faster :)

Another example is cruising on the freeway at 75 mph in 6th gear. I'm at about 2200 rpm. If I press the throttle a bit, I hear the turbo spool up, and acceleration is a bit stronger than I got with the Garrett in the same situation. It's just enough extra that I can adjust speed with traffic on the freeway more easily without downshifting, maintain speed up gentle inclines more easily without downshifting, etc.


The noises from the Precision are much different. There's a faint turbo whistle sound that I can hear occasionally during normal driving. At full throttle above 3000 rpm, I can definitely hear the turbo whistle. More interesting is that there's a lot more air "whooshing" sounds. I believe this is that anti-surge ports doing their job. It's most noticeable at part throttle. Give it just enough throttle to create some engine load and spin up the turbo, but the throttle is still closed enough that air flow rate is still relatively low. When the turbo is making some boost at low flow rates, that's when pressure backs up into the compressor blades and starts recirculating through the anti-surge ports. This also happens whenever you lift off the throttle a bit after the turbo was making some boost. Under heavier acceleration when lifting off the throttle enough for the BOV to open, the sounds of the anti-surge ports comes just before the BOV sound and they blend together.

Since the turbo spools up more easily at low rpms, and the turbo makes more noise due to its anti-surge ports, I actually get turbo noises much more often during gentler normal driving. I have mixed feelings on this. I like the crisp sound of the BOV, but I don't get to hear that clearly anymore because it's always accompanied by the whoosh of the anti-surge ports.


I still need to figure out why I only get 7.5 psi boost now. I haven't had time to thoroughly check for exhaust leaks yet. I'd also like to compare to MatthewLee - do you happen to know how much boost you are actually getting?

The Precision has a slightly smaller turbine housing with a smaller A/R ratio. It's possible that this turbo creates more exhaust back pressure than the Garrett. Since we're simply using wastegate spring pressure to control boost, it's actually a balancing act between the spring, boost pressure, and exhaust pressure that determines when the wastegate actually opens. It's possible that the Precision just makes less boost than the Garret with the same wastegate spring due to higher exhaust back-pressure (increased exhaust back-pressure would also be part of why it spools up more easily at low rpms). I'll try to get some info from Prodigy about this.

[UselessPickles]

I forgot to mention that when you are at higher rpms where the turbo is capable of producing larger amounts of boost, cruising at a steady speed, then punch the throttle, the Precision reacts more quickly than the Garrett. Less lag in that sense.

As a $495 upgrade option at the time of the initial purchase of the turbo kit, it is definitely worth the money.

As a $1350 stand-alone purchase for the new turbo to replace an existing Garrett... it really depends. If you can easily afford it and the part-throttle low-to-mid rpm driving with the Garrett annoys due to the way it lags at low rpms, I think you'll be happy with the purchase. If you're expecting to be blown away with big acceleration when you step on the throttle below 3000 rpm, you will be disappointed. If you are operating on a tight budget and have other things you want to do with the money, and you are satisfied with how the Garret is working for you, then spend your money elsewhere.


If I discover that I'm low on boost due to an install problem (exhaust leak, etc), and I find away to regain that 1 psi of boost I think I may be missing, some of my analysis may change.

[UselessPickles]

Just looked at a couple of Matthew's data logs. Boost looks pretty similar to mine, so that's a good sign that the Precision just makes less boost than the Garrett on wastegate spring pressure (probably due to increased exhaust backpressure). I'll still double check for exhaust leaks to be sure, but I'm feeling better now.

[UselessPickles]

Prodigy agrees with my assessment that lower boost with the Precision turbo compared to the Garrett is normal due to increased exhaust pressure from the design of the Precision that gives it faster spooling at lower rpms.

Now I'm waiting on a response as to whether it would be safe to bump the boost levels back up into the mid 8 psi range using a manual boost controller. I'm thinking of maybe even returning to the stage 1 wastegate spring and using a boost controller to set boost to the mid 8 psi range. This should theoretically give me better response/spooling. The boost controller combined with a lighter wastegate spring should hold the wastegate closed longer than a heavier wastegate spring alone.

BTW - The more I drive the Jeep without focusing on trying to notice improvements over the Garret, the more that I'm actually noticing/enjoying improvements. I've even noticed improvements in part-throttle acceleration in the 1000-2000 rpm range. When I stop thinking about trying to compare, I just find myself smoothly driving around, sometimes at lower rpms than I usually would, downshifting less, upshifting sooner, etc.

At this point, it's been so long since my Jeep was stock that I have absolutely no idea how this low rpm acceleration compares to the stock engine. I need to find someone with a manual transmission base model 2-door sport to do some back-to-back comparisons.

[UselessPickles]

Here's some eye candy:

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/precision.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/precision.jpg


Side-by-side Garrett (left) vs Precision (right):

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor_compare.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/compressor_compare.jpg

click for full size (http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/turbine_compare.jpg)
http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/jeep/prodigy_turbo_precision/turbine_compare.jpg


Precision has a slightly larger compressor wheel inducer (the visible part): 58 mm vs 56 mm

Precision has a slightly smaller turbine wheel exducer (the visible part): 62 mm vs 64 mm

The biggest difference is the shape of the turbine housing. The Precision very clearly has a smaller, more "tightly wound" shape that causes the exhaust gasses to more squarely hit the turbine blades. I can't find any A/R markings on the Garrett's turbine housing, but the Precision is marked as 0.58 A/R. The Garrett's A/R is almost certainly larger. Read about A/R here: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbine_housing_AR_and_housing_sizing

[Rexx19]

Very nice! SO Pickles... if you could have the money back and start over, would you stick with prodigy? Or roll the dice with a different power mod?

[UselessPickles]

I would want to test drive all the other power mods before I would make a decision like that. I wouldn't want to go through the effort of uninstalling the turbo and installing another mod just to discover that I should have stuck with the turbo.

If I could just magically have my money back and my Jeep returned to stock instantly, but still have all the knowledge I've gained, and couldn't test drive any other power mods first, I would definitely buy the Prodigy stage 2 kit with the Precision, with the newer (and nicer) TIG welded pipes. The installation would go so much more smoothly the second time around now that I know everything about the kit and the install procedure :)

Since I don't know how any of the power mods drive, it's impossible for me to know whether a test drive would cause me to prefer something else. I'd still be limited to bolt-on supercharger/turbo options (no V8 or diesel conversions) due to budget. Wes at Prodigy has assured me that I would be more impressed with the turbo kit if I had the opportunity to drive the competitor's power mods for comparison.

[2k13jk]

Awesome to hear its running good.

[UselessPickles]

Well, my fears of an exhaust leak have been confirmed. Had the top and doors off this weekend and I could hear the ticking sound of a leak during low speed light acceleration. Then I got a CEL that can be caused by an exhaust leak near the upstream O2 sensor. I'm starting to see the value in paying a competent performance shop to do the install. Getting all the exhaust pipes properly aligned and leak-free must be one of those things that just requires the magic touch of an experienced mechanic.

I'll report back when I get it fixed. There is a slight possibility that the leaks could be significant enough that i'll notice performance/driveability improvements after fixing them.

[gbaumann]

Getting all the exhaust pipes properly aligned and leak-free must be one of those things that just requires the magic touch of an experienced mechanic.

C'mon Pickles. You did a great job on the install! Pros do have the "magic" touch. But the honest ones will tell you that they use their magic to conjure up a generous helping of luck when it comes to exhaust installation.

[Yoinkers]

is this exhaust leak solved? is the new turbo superior?

[UselessPickles]

is this exhaust leak solved?

Exhaust leaks are not resolved yet. I have found some more bad/leaking welds on the pipes. Wes also sent me a new tune, saying that the engine codes I received were actually caused by a mistake in the tune he sent me originally, rather than the exhaust leaks. So it sounds like the exhaust leaks are not as bad as they first seemed, but they are still leaks that I want to get fixed. If nothing else, it will at least get rid of the annoying exhaust leak ticking sound that I can so clearly hear every time I drive now that I know what I'm listening for.

I've reported the bad welds to Prodigy. Waiting for a decision from them on how they will handle this.



is the new turbo superior?

Yes. Read my previous posts for descriptions of how it is superior. Once I get the exhaust leaks fixed, there's potential for me to have a bit more boost and a bit less lag, making things even a bit better.

[UselessPickles]

Quick update on what's going on with my Jeep...

Exhaust leak is still not fixed yet. The one confirmed leaking cracked weld, I might just have to pay a local shop to grind it out and re-weld it.

Driveability generally seems nearly perfect when the engine is fully warmed up now. There's been a few specific situations I've run into occasionally that cause the engine to stumble and reduce power around 2200-2500 rpm at freeway speeds while pushing on the throttle a bit to maintain speed up a an incline (like when the freeway passes over another road). This was with the Jeep fully loaded up with the family and a small trailer packed full of camping gear for a week.

I still consistently get some annoying hesitation/stumbling at specific engine speeds for a while after a cold start. I'm hanging on to a small amount of hope that this will improve after I finally get the exhaust leak fixed.


I have two projects I plan to get done before winter:

1) Add an oil catch can to the breather hose side of the PCV system and connect it up to the air filter for a fully closed PCV system. I have the catch can and I have a plan for where/how to mount it. I'm getting a custom bracket/spacer made so I can mount it nicely. After that, I'll be handing it over to a local performance shop to finish the install. The tricky part is the exact details of how to route the hose to the air filter and exactly what fittings to use to connect it to the air filter, etc. The performance shop should have familiarity with what types of fittings are available and have access to suppliers to come up with a solution much more quickly than I could (and possibly cheaper, because I'd probably have to use a trial and error approach, potentially ordering many fittings).

2) Switch to a lighter wastegate spring (which will produce less boost purely based on the spring), but add a boost controller to set the boost level higher than spring pressure alone. This setup will both allow me to get a bit more boost than I have now, and will cause the turbo to spool more quickly because the boost controller will hold the wastegate completely closed until the target boost is reached. With the wastegate alone, the valve starts partially opening about halfway to target boost, slowing down the spool. It will also allow me to turn the boost down to stage 1 levels. This could be useful if I need to let someone drive the Jeep that I don't trust with full power.

You might wonder whether it's safe to just add more boost than I have now. Well, I used to get up to 8.5 psi boost with the Garrett turbo during a 2nd gear full throttle acceleration. Now with the Precision turbo and the same wastegate spring, I only see about 7.5 psi in the same situation. This is most likely due to differences in the turbine side of the turbo (also part of the reason it spools more quickly and at lower rpms; I think I discussed this already earlier in the thread).



Also, Prodigy is now running their Jeep with the Precision turbo and a boost controller setup for 9 psi. Check this out:

https://www.facebook.com/prodigyperform/videos/vb.210234079070233/878717512221883/

They ran a 1/4 mile in 12.76s @ 106.5 mph!

In the comment thread, they say:


9lbs on 93 octane pump gas
Jeep has made 427rwhp and 411rwtq



427rwhp and 411rwtq!!!

[Pznivy]

Pickles! are you going to put your rig on a dyno? Yours is probably faster with the stock suspension and zero weight.

[boosted1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KA0PTvaR6Y

Stage 2 @ 9psi

[UselessPickles]

Pickles! are you going to put your rig on a dyno? Yours is probably faster with the stock suspension and zero weight.

I have no plans to put it on a dyno, but I do intend to take it to a drag strip at some point.

Mine will be slower because of the manual transmission (slower gear shifts, loss of turbo spool during gear shifts, and I can't brake-boost for the launch) and because of my 3.21 gears vs Prodigy's 4.10 gears. I think I'd be lucky to get quicker than 13.5s in the 1/4 mile.

[AGOM]

Hi All,
It's been a while, hope all is well with all.
Been following the post and it's interesting to see that efforts are all moving nearly in the same direction.
UselessPickles: we have so far installed a few kits here, it's been very busy working with some issues.
We have come to the conclusion that a dual catch can setup is more beneficial for us, and with the hot climates we operate at the damaging effects that those unburnt gases and fuels we prefer not to let them drain back into the pan, also having the PCV and Make-up air hoses independent proved more efficient in maintaining that cycle of pressure difference.
We are also looking at re introducing the check valve ( pre-catch can kit from prodigy) we think it will help the PCV valve by allowing it to maintain the vacuume and the breather pulling in cleaner air.
We also went for the boost controller option (not received yet) but it's the same one you went with. But we will keep the stage 2 wastgate Spring.

Heat:
We now make it standard when ordering the kits that we go for the Mishimoto radiator and 180 thermostat, it has been a great mode for us as engine heat is at comfortable limits.
But because of how crowded it is in the front we will be removing the transmission cooler from current position in the front and installing a fan assisted remot transmission cooler which will tame the transmission heating we have experienced frequently, but we already fitted the transmission Deep Oil Pan, which also helped a little.

Regarding the boost controller, in their installation they were referring to using the nipple on the turbo as a boost source, can I ask why you chose to go further down stream to get it?

BOV: after reading your post I checked what we had, and I was surprised to find that at steady idle it's open, what was more suppressing that it's not doing it every time at idle. I would have thought that at idle steady RPM that it will be doing it the same all the time, would this mean that we have an issue with vacuume? I would expect small variations but not to go from full open to nearly closed from one idle cycle to another.

I will publish what we have done when everything is in, properly mounted and in working order.
I really would like to read what you all have to say about what we have done, good or bad, please. As our aim is to keep improving this kit because we are loving it.

Our test Vehicle:
2013 JKU
Auto,
3.5" lift
4.1 gear ratio
315/70R17 tiers

[UselessPickles]

We have come to the conclusion that a dual catch can setup is more beneficial for us, and with the hot climates we operate at the damaging effects that those unburnt gases and fuels we prefer not to let them drain back into the pan


I'm interested to see this dual catch can system. I'd also like to know how much it would cost to buy all the parts for it.

I 'm currently running Prodigy's catch can on the breather side of the system only. The PCV side is still connected through a check valve to the intake manifold. I'm not concerned about any unburnt fuel, water, etc draining back to the oil pan because it will evaporate again and get sucked out through the PCV hose when I'm not on boost.

How much oil are you actually catching on the PCV side? I assumed that I shouldn't need to worry about catching oil on that side because the engine should already have a decent oil separator prior to the PCV valve. Air will only flow through that side of the system when not on boost, so it shouldn't really be any different than stock as far as how much oil passes through and how bad it is for the engine.

Have you noticed any improvements in off-boost driveability after adding the catch can on the PCV side?




We are also looking at re introducing the check valve ( pre-catch can kit from prodigy) we think it will help the PCV valve by allowing it to maintain the vacuume and the breather pulling in cleaner air.


The check valve is necessary to avoid exposing the PCV valve to boost. The PCV valve was not designed to act as a check valve against boost, and it may even leak boost into the crankcase.

Check out part #7775K13 in the McMaster-Carr catalog (in the "Quick-Opening Brass Check Valves" section): http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/506/=vsmsyx

It should be a direct replacement for the check valve originally provided by Prodigy (same thread size, etc.), but it cracks open at lower pressure (0.3 psi vs 1 psi). This check valve should allow the PCV system to work more closely to the way it was designed to work.




Regarding the boost controller, in their installation they were referring to using the nipple on the turbo as a boost source, can I ask why you chose to go further down stream to get it?


Because of the pressure drop across the intercooler. The intercooler becomes more restrictive (more pressure drop) as airflow increases (higher engine speeds). If your boost source is before the intercooler, boost at the intake manifold will taper off quite a bit at higher rpms. A boost source after the intercooler will work the turbo harder at higher engine speeds to try to maintain more steady boost all the way up to redline (more high rpm power!)

More about this here: http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/

And this post explains why you shouldn't use the intake manifold as the boost source: http://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/boost-sag-no-you-dont-need-ebc-47532/#post574757



BOV: after reading your post I checked what we had, and I was surprised to find that at steady idle it's open, what was more suppressing that it's not doing it every time at idle. I would have thought that at idle steady RPM that it will be doing it the same all the time, would this mean that we have an issue with vacuume? I would expect small variations but not to go from full open to nearly closed from one idle cycle to another.


The results can vary based on whether the engine is warmed up or not. My incorrect BOV spring allows the BOV to crack open at about 15" vacuum. When I first start my engine when it is completely cold, it initially idles at high RPM for a few seconds with less than 15" vacuum, and the BOV is fully closed. As the idle speed drops down over the next several seconds, vacuum increases and the BOV partially opens. It seems to idle at slightly higher than normal RPM for quite a while until the engine completely warms up. At this point I see about 18.9" vacuum. Once it is fully warmed up, I see about 19.8-20.1" vacuum, and the BOV is fully open.

I've determined I have the "WHITE" BOV spring (spring chart: http://www.tialsport.com/documents/w3_tial_qqr_sp.pdf). I have talked with tech support and concluded that the "YELLOW" spring will most likely be just a bit too much and cause some compressor surge. The "PLAIN" spring is a bit too weak and may allow the BOV to crack open at idle when the engine is fully warmed up, but it will respond quickly and avoid compressor surge. My plan is to install the "PLAIN" spring and fine-tine it with a couple washers to shim/pre-load the spring enough to keep the BOV completely closed at idle.

If you want to find out what spring is in your BOV, you don't have to open it up to find out. There's a serial number on the top of the BOV. I was able to read it with a small mirror without removing any parts from the vehicle. It starts with the letters "SN", so that will help you identify it and calibrate your breain to read the numbers backward in the mirror :). You can send the serial number in an email to tech@tialsport.com and ask them which spring they put in it.

BTW - Prodigy confirmed that they order BOVs with the "PLAIN" spring. Not sure how I ended up with the wrong spring.

[Rexx19]

how much oil are these catch cans catching? when it gets full, does the oil just go right down the pipe?