New to forum, 2015 JKU with 3.5 AEV, Prodigy Stage 2

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Originally Posted by Bkeef

If all of us are seeing the same 1500-2500 lag then we should collectively share that so they can focus on that first IMO

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I have not held back on providing any feedback to Prodigy. I'm afraid they may file for a restraining/no-contact order if I share any more feedback with them :)

Please do share your feedback with them. The only way they can learn about and solve issues is if they get feedback from multiple people that clearly indicates a widespread issue with the tune, rather than isolated incidents that could be potentially explained as an install problem, poor gas quality, driving style, unrealistic expectations, etc.

How much oil did you guys see from your crankcase breather following your install? I'm weeping out a little bit. Noticed some apots in the garage. Wondering if it's just the jeep getting used to the tune.

I can't really answer that because I've customized that part of the install now. I'm not even sure what the official setup is with the kit now.

Read through this post to learn about my current setup, and follow links in the post for more history/details of how I ended up with that setup: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?13...ull=1#post3608

With my setup, I have not noticed any oil dripping from the end of my breather hose. This is probably because I'm using the stock hose, which is HIGHER than where it connects to the engine. So any oil that condenses inside the hose will tend to run back into the engine. The downside of my setup is that you're more likely to smell some oil vapors after heavy acceleration. Those oil vapors under the hood can find their way to the HVAC inlet, or right into the vehicle if you have windows down, top down, etc.

I plan to eventually run the breather through an oil catch can and connect it back to the air filter for a fully closed PCV system. The Prodigy kit is the only forced induction kit on the market for the Wrangler that has the crankcase vent to atmosphere. They do this to allow for consistent/better performance when on boost by not having to worry about oil vapor reducing the effective octane of the fuel. The downside is that venting to atmosphere can be stinky, messy (as you are learning), and is not good for the environment (emissions). I really think an oil catch can could give the best of both worlds.

I think this is one area of the turbo kit that still needs improvement. Please share photos and descriptions of your dripping breather hose with Prodigy to ensure they are aware of the issue.

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

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Originally Posted by UselessPickles

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

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I'll check for you today if I can and get you a picture.

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Originally Posted by UselessPickles

Question for you now...

Is the end of your air filter contacting/vibrating against the plastic wheel well liner? I have my turbo system pushed as far up and towards the driver side as the down pipe mounting bracket will allow, but my air filter still firmly touches that liner. My liner is slightly pushed out of its natural resting position, and I get an annoying vibrating noise from it at certain RPMs.

I really need to get this taken care of because I want to use a water-repellent pre-filter bag on my air filter. The contact between the filter and plastic liner has already worn a hole through one.

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I'll check for you today if I can and get you a picture. ***need to figure out how to post?

Are any of you guys running a catch can on their turbo install? I'm curious. The way this PCV is currently routed, Im getting oil drops. To describe how its mounted now -- It runs down parallel to driver side of transmission -- then drops behind to make sort of a drop or loop (maybe 3-4 ' gradual swoop), then turns up on the passenger side of transmission and zips into place. The picture shows the breather turned on side, but there is a bit of a P-trap with the swoop. Still dripping from this. I was able to move it a little and get more of a tilted 45' than straight horizontal.

Im no mechanic, but would like you guys to chime in. Ive sent to Prodigy for suggestions. They have been awesome to help, but I always look for other views to compliment.

Attachment 1470

i run a catch can on my ripp kit i recomend it but buy a decent one not a cheap one

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Originally Posted by 2k13jk

i run a catch can on my ripp kit i recomend it but buy a decent one not a cheap one

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x2. catch cans are fantastic.

you'll know its there immediately, I should check mine to see how full it is.

Thanks guys

I just popped by a shop that another buddy of mine works with. They are going to put it on the rack this afternoon and re-route the PCV hose. Pickles nailed it. The breather regardless of trap orientation is below the oil pan level and is collecting the oil. This will fix the gas/oil fumes from getting into the car from the heat or AC.
More to follow
BK

AHHHH pickles solves it all!

You would think this is something that would be caught before sale.

OK gents

The fix is in. Problem solved. It runs a ton better under boost as well. Something about the PCV not being clogged with oil.. Sorry about the orientation..

Attachment 1471

Attachment 1472

If I were you, I'd try to get the original plastic breather hose back from the shop that did your install (if they haven't thrown it out yet). Worst case, buy a new one from a dealer for about $16. Just remove the rubber hose part that originally connected to the stock air box and pop the small breather filter on the end of the plastic hose:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...v_update_2.jpg

Then it's all hidden underneath the plastic engine cover.

And yes, I painted the chrome cap of that little air filter black :)

Good point. It looks decent now but I don't mind the slight chrome

I'd like to tuck under cover. I'll do that on next trip.

Pickles. Where is the little brass inline check valve coming off the PCV mounted. Don't see it.

On my setup? It's hiding behind the engine where the PCV hose connects to the valve cover, integrated with the stock plastic PCV hose:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...pipe_mod_1.jpg

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...pipe_mod_6.jpg


More details: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?13...ull=1#post2116

Ok my PCV valve on the 2015 looks different. It looks like a small snorkel with two screw holes that mounts starlight to back of valve. I think I have a bad check valve. My mod pictured earlier failed miserably. I drove 400 miles today and arrived with oil splattered completely down side of jeep.

Catch can going in tomorrow for backup.

My guy took brass check valve apart and it held pressure but the movement was real jerky and not fluid. He thinks that at 2500-3000 rpm it's not breathing and pooling oil. Then when boost opens up it sprays everywhere. Dunno.

So to clarify I have a snorkel PCV valve attached to valve cover then line comes off and check valve is inserted in line off intake. Mounts under cover. Looks different than yours

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Originally Posted by Bkeef

Looks different than yours

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That's because I customized my install (as described in the link to more details) to retain an OEM-like appearance :)


None of my pictures show the PCV valve itself. The rubber elbow in my pictures is what slides onto the PCV valve and connects the PCV valve to the stock plastic hose.

Prodigy provides this hose with the brass check valve, and I just didn't like how it looked:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...l/pcv_hose.jpg



Maybe this will help clear things up... This is what the stock engine looks like without the engine cover:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...under_hood.jpg


Here's the PCV system highlighted:

http://www.uselesspickles.com/files/...pcv_system.jpg


Compare to the pictures of my setup I posted previously, and you'll see that I'm simply reusing the original plastic hoses, with some modifications to include the brass check valve in the PCV hose.

Red is the PCV hose, running from the PCV valve on the passenger side of the engine to the intake manifold.
Yellow is the breather (aka, "make up air") hose running from the air box to the breather port on the driver side of the engine.

The arrows indicate the normal flow direction of air. When the manifold has vacuum (no boost), it sucks air from the crankcase through the PCV valve and hose, which in turn sucks air from the air box through the breather hose back into the crankcase. This continuously sucks oil vapors and blow-by gasses (fuel vapors and exhaust fumes that snuck past the piston rings) out of the crankcase and replaces it with fresh air.

Regardless of whether you use the hoses provided by Prodigy, or customize it with the original plastic hoses like I did, you need that brass check valve in between the PCV valve and the intake manifold, installed to allow air to flow toward the intake manifold.

When on boost, the check valve prevents boost from reaching the crankcase through the PCV hose/valve. However, boost means more blow-by gases entering the crankcase past the piston rings, so you end up with oil vapors and blow-by gasses flowing backwards through the breather hose.

With the stock setup, no big deal. Those gasses flow into the air box, and immediately get sucked back into the intake manifold and burned up in the engine. With the Prodigy setup, it vents to atmosphere. If you have any dips in your breather hose, it could possibly act as a trap to collect condensed oil vapors. Once it collects enough oil in the dip to act as a partial blockage in the hose, the next time you use some boost, the blow-by gasses flowing backward through the breather hose could blow that trapped oil out the end of the breather hose.

I think it's important to make sure the breather hose runs up-hill from the engine breather port to allow condensed oil vapors to drip back into the engine (instead of out of the end of the breather), AND make sure there's no dips in the hose that could let oil pool up. The original hard plastic breather hose conveniently meets these requirements, and requires no modifications to use. Just remove the S-shaped rubber hose that used to connect it to the air box, and pop the small breather filter on.

If the brass check valve is backward, that could also explain the mess you're getting. That would allow boost to directly enter the crankcase and forcefully blow oil vapors out through the breather hose.

...and again, those stupid ads are eating up valuable screen width and forcing my pictures to be so small they are almost useless. There has to be a better way to integrate ads into this forum without squishing the width of the post content like that.

Thanks Pickles

Appreciate the clarity. The arrow on the brass check valve, which direction does it point?


Also on breather side, my last hook up had absolutely no dips and was above oil area. Really bizarre why it blew so much oil, even on low Rpm driving.

The arrow on the brass check valve indicates the direction that the valve will allow air to flow. It should point toward the intake manifold, like the red arrow in my picture. You can even double-check that the arrow on the check valve is correct by trying to suck air through in the indicated direction with your mouth. It might take a bit more force than you expect, so if it seems to not work in either direction, just suck harder :)

So went ahead and plunged with a catch can arrangement. My guy used a Moroso 84565 CC. He made some custom braided hose and T'd into the bottom oil return line from the turbo. Now the oil returns back to the oil pan. Works great

Attachment 1475

Attachment 1473
He also cut about a 1/3 from the check valve spring and added a different O ring. Seems to open better which we thought could be contributing to the boost push of oil. Boost before was coming in about 27-2800 rpm. Now it's coming on around 2200. Feels a load better. I picked up an extra 2mpg on my usual highway route. To early to tell if this was isolated but jeep runs great.

Attachment 1474

So I did a google search for "Moroso 84565" to find details on your catch can. First 2 results:

"The most beautiful vagina NWS - YellowBullet.com"
"Smart teen pisses off hungry frog?! - Dodge Challenger Forum"

:confused:

I like the idea of having the oil catch can hooked up to drain to the oil pan like that. No need to check/drain the catch can.

It worries me a bit that there was no obvious problem/cause found that would explain your oily mess. With your catch can arrangement, you might just be masking the underlying problem that is causing excess oil to come through the breather hose.

It also doesn't make sense that any of the changes you described would have any effect on when boost kicks in, unless a boost leak somewhere along the PCV hose was unintentionally fixed while removing/re-installing parts.

It almost sounds like there was something wrong with the check valve or its installation that was allowing boost to flow into the crankcase through the PCV hose. That would explain both a lack of boost and excess oil blowing out of the breather. Did you find something wrong with the check valve? Was it not reliably closing/sealing, or was it installed backward?

Check valve wasn't closing properly. It had a rough movement. We have another one coming just for backup.

Even with the repaired check valve we are still blowing the oil on part load driving. We could not determine any leaks thoughout the PCV system. I didn't ask if my guy smoke tested it but he says it's right now. What's strange is under full hauling ass driving there is almost no oil coming out. I really notice it on highway driving cruising 2200/3000 rpm when the boost comes in and out. This made us believe this was PCV related. You may be right about the repair fixed a small vacuum leak. The catch can sure as hell fixes the oil issue. Check valve was installed correctly originally so it wasn't backards. What I'm curious if the spring is weakened more will it bring on boost quicker?

I can only hope there is no other underlying issue. It sure drives great now so who knows.

** note to googlers. Must add catch can to Moroso 84565 search unless your into Asian porn.

Pickles, Dan caught this before you when I was telling him about the mod. LOl

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Originally Posted by Bkeef

Check valve wasn't closing properly.

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That makes sense. If it wasn't *closing* properly, then it would allow boost to blow through the crankcase and out the breather. This would also essentially behave like a boost leak, causing boost to take longer and require higher rpms to build up. Sounds like that was the root problem.

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Originally Posted by Bkeef

What I'm curious if the spring is weakened more will it bring on boost quicker?

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No. The spring holds the check valve closed, and a closed check valve is what is necessary to avoid a boost leak into the crankcase. Weakening the spring would make it open more easily, which may allow the PCV system to operate more efficiently at part throttle cruising, but would have no effect on performance at higher engine loads... unless it is weakened so much that it doesn't reliably close, and that would bring you back to the same problem you just solved.



One attribute of check valves is "cracking pressure"... the amount of pressure required to "crack" the valve open. The best option for this application would be a zero cracking pressure valve. It would basically behave as if it didn't exist at all any time there was no boost, and the PCV system would work exactly as originally designed. As soon as manifold pressure crossed into the positive boost range, the valve would close and prevent boost from entering the crank case.

The check valve in the turbo kit seems to require quite a bit of pressure to crack it open. That means that at certain engine loads when the stock PCV valve would normally allow manifold vacuum to suck some air from the crankcase, the check valve is actually staying closed and preventing airflow through the crankcase. I'm thinking of replacing it with a valve that has a low cracking pressure (0.3 psi). That's the lowest cracking pressure I was able to find for a check valve that is the right size, etc. Dan at Prodigy was not able to obtain the specs for the check valve they use, so I'm not even certain that my replacement would be an improvement.

Cracking pressure is 1 psi. I have the specs. Let me know if you need more details and I can PM.

** What oil are you guys running in your Prodigy/Jeep?

In that case, I'll probably go ahead and order part# 7775K13 from McMaster Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/506/=vsm98h (in the "Quick-Opening Brass Check Valves" section). 0.3 psi seems much better than 1 psi.

I'm using Mobile 1, 5w20l. It's quite affordable at Walmart. They sell 5 qt containers, so I buy one of those and a 1 qt bottle each time.

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Originally Posted by UselessPickles

In that case, I'll probably go ahead and order part# 7775K13 from McMaster Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/506/=vsm98h (in the "Quick-Opening Brass Check Valves" section). 0.3 psi seems much better than 1 psi.

I'm using Mobile 1, 5w20l. It's quite affordable at Walmart. They sell 5 qt containers, so I buy one of those and a 1 qt bottle each time.

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OK
For some reason my guys used 5w30 synthetic which is like apple juice. That could have contributed to my oil issues.....

So confirming now it takes almost 6 quarts with the turbo? I don't change my oil but was just curious.
BK

The 2012 Wranglers called for 5w30 on the oil fill cap and in the owners manual. Starting in 2013, they switched it to 5w20. I've heard of people asking about this and getting a response from Chrysler that either is fine. 5w20 is thinner than 5w30, so some people suggest the switch to thinner oil may have been to slightly improve efficiency.

Owners manual states that the oil capacity is exactly 6 qts. The turbo would slightly increase the oil capacity because the lower end of the turbo's oil drain hose is below the oil level in the oil pan, but it's not enough to worry about.

Sorry if this was discussed before, but anyone already installed a catch can with the prodigy set-up? Do I still use the valve that is currently fitted?

Also anyone getting oil in the small filter at the end of the make-up air hose the connects to the driver side manifold?

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Originally Posted by AGOM

Sorry if this was discussed before, but anyone already installed a catch can with the prodigy set-up? Do I still use the valve that is currently fitted?

Also anyone getting oil in the small filter at the end of the make-up air hose the connects to the driver side manifold?

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I'm running a catch can, check one page earlier. I was getting oil from breather as well. I have a 2015 and I think the PCV system is a little different which may have been creating this issue. I think all new kits moving forward will use a catch can along with a vacuum line to intake perhaps.

Mine works pretty well. I have seen a couple of drops by the mesh filter but no spraying oil for sure.

BKeef, looking at your set-up for the Catch-Can - which is sweet by the way - i see that its fitted to the driver side, is it connected to the driver side hose, im confused, i thought the driver side was the Make up air side, so shouldnt the catch can be fitted to the passenger side hose where it will be filled with oil vapours comming out of the manifold? This is based on the pictures you posted, not beeing able to see the input to the catch can, and also seeing that the hose with the valve is still fitted to the intake manifold.
Can someone clarify this for me.

So the catch can is mounted on a custom bracket my guy made. It's miunted on passenger side behind the computer board. The hose that normally has the breather is now connected into to the top of the catch can. Catch can has a braided fitting in the bottom the runs into a T fitting on the oil return line for the turbo going to the oil pan. It actually connects to the bulk head fitting on the pan. Hope that helps.

Not sure why im still having difficulty understanding this.
What i assumed is that air commimg out from the passenger valve cover to intake manifold which comes with a valve on the prodigy set-up is the air we want to be clean, because its the hose that would be carrying the oil vapours.
is your jk a right hand drive? Only asking because you mentioned that the bracket is on Passenger side behind computer, for me that would be driver side.

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Originally Posted by AGOM

Not sure why im still having difficulty understanding this.
What i assumed is that air commimg out from the passenger valve cover to intake manifold which comes with a valve on the prodigy set-up is the air we want to be clean, because its the hose that would be carrying the oil vapours.
is your jk a right hand drive? Only asking because you mentioned that the bracket is on Passenger side behind computer, for me that would be driver side.

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OK Im in US so we probably are opposite to you.

Sounds like we are flip flopped. Page 7 has a photo of the catch can in the motor on the driver side of my Jeep. I will try and mark it up with photo shop when I have a breather at the office
B

Hope this helps

Yellow is catch can and line that feeds from back side of motor (oily air/vapor). Orange is intake (motor cover is off for reference), you can see brass check valve on it.Attachment 1477

Yes, Bkeef's catch can is on the breather (make-up air) hose, which is still venting to atmosphere. This was done just to avoid oil coming out of the breather, and has nothing to do with keeping oil vapors out of the intake.

An ideal system would have 2 catch cans and a completely closed system for the crankcase ventilation.

1) From the PCV valve (rear engine right/passenger side) -> catch can -> check valve -> intake manifold (AFTER turbo/supercharger, where boost may exist). A catch can here would remove oil from the air that is sucked in while cruising at light/moderate engine loads or idling. This should theoretically improve engine feel/performance during normal daily driving type situations.

2) From engine breather (rear engine left/driver side) -> catch can -> intake system (BEFORE turbo/supercharger, where boost will NEVER exist). A catch can here will remove oil from air that is pushed out of the crankcase by piston blow-by gasses when on boost, and should improve full throttle performance.

The current Prodigy setup simply avoids detrimental effects of oil vapors during full throttle boost by venting the crankcase breather to atmosphere. Good for performance, bad for the environment, and annoying to the nose on a warm day with the top down.

UslessPickles always to the rescue, thats exactly what i was confused about.
BKeef we drive on the same side, what confused me was when you wrote " its mounted on passenger side behind computer board" so just a miss understanding.
So BKeef's setup is different from what i was after although i have to say an environmentally consious one, which im also going to immitate, but my initial concern was the setup UslessPickles mentioned which will stop oily vapoures from making their way back to the intake.
So anyone got the other setup done?