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So im driving unreasonably fast on the highway, like im known to do, Then the exit ramp is coming up....
I had to put on a down shifting clinic, which im also known to do... LOL
I hit a pot hole at the apex of the turn, and the steering wheel when nuts, shaking left and right violently. I could have sworn that I'd blown a tire.
I had to pull over and inspect the truck. Everything was in order.
Im assuming the stock steering stablizer is overwhelmed?
Most likely you just upset the apple cart. Our Jeeps are not sports cars but we drive them like it. I myself push the hot Rice cars on the on and off ramps. Why just cause I like to feel the G Forces. Sometimes I get a bit of a shake when I am really cooking it. I would imagine if your turning in and then downshifting load/unload cycle, while your hitting the pothole it could make some items bend and flex.
This has happened to me before. It only happened once and it was shortly after I had installed my first lift kit, had the 35s on, and I was transitioning on a highway junction. I think the ESP even kicked on.
I pulled off the highway and into a parking lot, got out, and starting inspecting everything. I was sure if I had blown a shock or a coil came unseated or what the hell happened.
I never found anything out of place and it had never done it again. I did check all the torque on all suspension parts when I got home but everything was nice and tight.
I have heard where the stock steering stabilizer can last a really long time and is enough to run at least 35s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
Ross, sounds like that's your first bout with DEATH WOBBLE. The two most obvious culprits are a loose or worn Tracbar and/or bad ball joints. After that the waters muddy. Make sure the Tracbar bolts are torqued to spec. Check to make sure the bushings are in good shape and the holes in the mounts are not out off round. I assume you have an aftermarket Tracbar but if not, given the stage of your build it's time anyway. Next, check for play in ball joints. You're "Jeeplab" so I'm betting you know how to do that. Of course if you still have the original factory ball joints it's likely time for an upgrade. The undeniable best bang-for-buck ballpoints are the synergy offerings...it's the only thing the whole internet agrees on.
If you don't find an obvious problem in one of those areas it may get harder to diagnose and isolate, but be assured, you do have a problem. It was not an isolated incident. It will happen again, and it will happen more frequently and more violently until you deal with it. If you wait, numerous occurrences will prematurely wear most every component in your front end.
Sorry bout it:rolleyes:
Start with the ball joints. The factory ball joints come from the factory with lots of play and it doesn't take them long to go out.
Ok so im prepared to rip the front end apart.
Trackbar, Stabilizer, ball joints.
i think im going to get my hands on an oem stabilizer, (cheap) change that first. Then ball joints.... RK makes a steering kit, Ill look into that too and report back.
if im going around a turn on an off ramp amd on the brake a bit the esp comes on and the jeep gets very weird feeling . it pulses the esp. but if im off the brake it is normal.
describe your suspension situation. Anything loose? sway bars connected?
Check your ABS/ Wheel speed sensors. They may be going bad. I buried my Jeep to the frame in some mud a few weeks ago and both passenger wheels were completely packed with mud. Now my ESP kicks on after the Jeep sits for a bit and I get in to go some where. I've pulled both sensors to clean them but I'm going to just replace them. My ESP goes off by the time I leave the neighborhood. It's just a pain until I get that far.
For others following this thread, this post is directed at 40inchDozer, not JL. Its referring the the esp trac lights he has in the turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteRavenRR
As for the JL steering issues, we are going to change everything to make sure we get the culprit in one sitting. I do not want to change ball joints, put the truck back together and find that it was not the problem.
Drag link
Tie rod
stabilizer
ball joints
whatever else I can unscrew and take off down there, its all going.
Hey JL. For what it's worth, I just went through my bout of death wobble and finally got it isolated and corrected 100%. Before you go changing everything, be sure to do some good research to get good parts that truly eliminate death wobble. It's too easy to replace parts (and lots of them) thinking you'll fix it, only to realize later it was one little $15 part that needed to replace, not $400 worth of parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
For starters... Are you SURE you now have death wobble? Once a wobble, hey, it happens with heavy tires. If you start getting wobble over various pot holes, down un-even roads, when coming out of a turn, etc., then that is for sure death wobble.
I'll tell you the one thing that surprised me is just how little "sloppiness" is required in various parts to create a huge wobble. In my case, my left tie rod end on my tie rod had just about 1/8" up and down movement, combined with about 1/8" up and down movement on the tie rod end on the right side of my drag link that it caused wobble. The left tie rod end cost me $15 to replace and took about 15 minutes. The tie rod end on the drag link is not replaceable, so I ended up going with a Synergy drag link. Synergy recently came out with an updated drag link that has a grease fitting at the top, BUT, their tie rod end actually has a spring in it to keep the tie rod end nice and snug throughout it's life of wearing down, and they also tested the link with NO grease for thousands of miles to see how it would hold up. It's a pretty impressive solution. The one trick I learned to help isolate the problem is to take channel lock pliers and put it vertical so you are on top and on bottom of the tie rod ends and then try to compress the tie rod end. They should not compress AT ALL. Mine did about 1/8". You have four tie rod ends to check. The two on the drag link and the two on the tie rod bar. It takes about 1 minute to check them all like this. I found this little trick on YouTube and I can try to look up the video again if you need to see a visual of this check.
Also, another hint for you. TAKE OFF THE DAMN STABILIZER. I don't mean permanently here, just during your testing phase. The stabilizer masks tons of issues to the point that you'll have trouble trying to figure out if you resolved the issue or not. If you're Jeep is setup 100% correctly, then you actually don't need a stabilizer at all. The purpose of the stabilizer is not to prevent death wobble, it is to help with the feel of the steering so that you don't feel like the steering is super twitchy because everything is working so well. Sadly, many people will upgrade the steering stabilizer, or even go with dual stabilizers, in order to try and fix death wobble. All that does is mask it, until the stabilizers finally wear down and the wobble comes back.
Lastly... What changes to your steering system have you done to date? Have you flipped your drag link? If so, did you re-located your track bar up to keep them in parallel with each other? If not, don't go relocating the track bar up thinking you're suppose to do this with a lift. You ONLY do it when you flip the drag link. Another check of this... When you decelerate hard, or accelerate hard, does the steering wheel either try to turn left or turn right on it's own? This is a sign that your drag link and track bar are not parallel to each other. If they are absolutely in correct orientation with each other, then a hard accelerate/decelerate should not move the steering wheel one bit.
Sorry to provide so much commentary and questions if you already know this stuff. I would just hate to have possible first hand experience in getting rid of death wobble and not pass it along if I could be of some help. My final solution included a $250 Synergy drag link, a $15 tie-rod end for the left tie rod bar, and then a $20 track bar relocation bracket because the previous owner had the drag link flipped but didn't have the track bar relocated. The ultimate fixes weren't too bad (well, the removal of the OEM drag link from the pitman arm sucked) but figuring out what the fixes would be was the real problem.
Attachment 1091
Synergy Drag Link pics
Attachment 1092
Attachment 1093
Exploded view of Synergy tie rod end. Notice the spring at the top.
Attachment 1094
^^ Excellent Post. excellent info. Im on the sidelines for this one, but its info every lifted truck will need.
My question is, how do you know when its right? Is it some crazy geometric equation? Or is it right or wrong. Meaning, is the install fool proof?
Or do i need a shop to measure down to the millimeter and then do alignment afterwords?
I'd like to do this and install myself, but need it to be completely correct. Need the keep my passengers in good shape.
I'm assuming you are referring to the track bar and the drag link being parallel to each other? Just for reference for everyone, a non-parallel solution creates "bump steer" not "death wobble." They are two different issues entirely. To your question, I don't think it needs to be that accurate, it just needs to be close. Obviously, the closer it is, the better the ride, but it's not like if you are off 1/2" that you will have a bad ride and bump steer all over the place. I think with most Jeeps, we are so used to a little play in the steering that if you came to a stop and the wheel moves say 1 degree left, it's not going to drive you that bonkers. The bump steer that drives you nuts is when you are going over speed bumps and the wheel whips hard to the left say 5 degrees even though the Jeep tracks straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pznivy
Also, the fix is easy, I don't personally think you need an alignment afterwards. I replaced my own tie rod end on my tie rod bar, which certainly impacts the toe in/out of the wheels (that was to fix death wobble, not bump steer.) I then went for a drive and checked out how the vehicle drove, decided if I liked it or not, and came back and re-adjusted as needed. I noticed how my tires were wearing prior to this change and I noticed that the inside of my tires were wearing much faster than the outside. I realized this was because of too much toe-in from the shop that put the lift on, so I took some of that toe-in out and now my tires are wearing nice and even and the Jeep drives great! I just keep an eye on my tires on a regular basis to see how they are wearing. As for the drag link and alignment. Jeep and Syngergy has made this stupid simple to adjust. Basically, if you drive down the road and your steering wheel is not center, just shorten the drag link if the steering wheel is left of center while going straight, and extend the drag link if your steering wheel is right of center while going straight. Probably three or four trips up and down the road and you can pretty well get your steering wheel dead center while driving dead straight down a road.
When I bought my Jeep and started to learn about the lift on it, bump steer, death wobble, and the dynamics of a solid axle under a body, that's when it all started to click with me. I never really realized that your front axle actually shifts left and right under the body depending on if the axle drops (say catchin' a little air, grin) or compresses under the Jeep (think speed bump.) Engineer Johnny had to find a way to prevent the steering wheel from moving/rotating as the drag link moved up and down, which obviously either shortened or elongated the distance from the wheel to the pitman arm of the steering. That is ultimately the purpose of the track bar, and why it is crucial that it is parallel with the drag link. When the suspension compresses, the track bar forces the axle to the passenger side every so slight, say 1" depending on how much it compresses, or pulls it to the drivers side if it drops. It needs to move the axle to the passenger side because as the axle comes up into the Jeep, the drag link comes up as well, and since the drag link comes up, one of two things must happen. Either A) the steering arm (pitman arm) needs to move to the drivers side since the distance itself is shortened, thereby creating "bump steer" or B) the axle must move to the passenger side, thereby keeping the distance from the pitman arm to the wheel the same, ala, no bump steer.
So, long story short, it doesn't have to be exact, but obviously the closer the better. If you don't flip your drag link from the bottom to the top of the knuckle, then you really shouldn't need to relocate the track bar because Engineer Johnny at Chrysler already put those two in parallel with each other. The problem with not relocating though is that the angle for normal driving is now steeper, which naturally shifts the axle to the drivers side so they are not running in-line with the rear wheels. You can elongate the track bar and draglink to fix this, but the angle is still steep which means any compression will really move the axle to the drivers side a lot. To fix that, you ultimately want the drag link and the track bar as horizontal as possible, and they only way to make that happen is to flip the drag link to the top of the knuckle. Well, once you flip it, you track bar is no longer in parallel, so you now have to relocate that up by the same distance.
Hope this helps anyone struggling with bump steer. Feel free to ask more questions, or there are already gobs of posts on this all over the web.
A picture is worth a 1000 words on this subject, so here's a few that I found that help describe the situation better.
Attachment 1095
Attachment 1096
Attachment 1097
Attachment 1098
PS... All this does make you wonder... Why hasn't Engineer Johnny found a way to locate the steering box directly on the axle so the distance of the drag link NEVER changes to begin with?
Whoa Timmy!
You are killing it with the pics!
This is great info. Im going to start tearing Betty's steering apart. If im gonna get in there, im going to strip it down completely and figure out whats going on.
I will not just blame the stabilizer, (even though the stabilizer is definatly getting changed.)
I'd like to see some pics if you find anything suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
I talked to Synergy today. I wanted their perspective on the situation with my front end. They told me Tiimmy, "nailed it" .
ill keep you all posted as I move forward dissecting the problem.
So synergy components for this steering change? Are they the only game in town?
Ive looked around for drag links and stuff. Dosent seem to be much out there.
If you are going to get under there and screw with that stuff, change it all. leave nothing to chance. Nothing worse than a steering problem.
Timma!!! (takes a bow.)Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
Attachment 1138
Oooooh, far from it. There are so many after markets in this area it is crazy. There is stuff that matches OEM, there is stuff like Synergy that is above par and massively stronger than original OEM. There are some out there that are actually very flexible for those times when you bash a rock. Here's a video of some tie rod bars whacking rocks, and you'll notice how there are two different after market ones in the video. The first one is a steel bar that is VERY stiff and strong and doesn't bend (compared to OEM.) The second one is an aluminum one and it bends and returns back to shape. You pick which is best for you...Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPmeOVER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4e9YPCUONA
So what style is going in here? the flexy style?
which is better for our purposes?
Define "purpose." If you aren't planning on hitting any rocks, then pretty much any after market tie rod (or any other part) will more then work. Also, do you need to replace any parts right now? A lot of people just replace these parts with aftermarket parts when the OEM ones go bad, unless they really are going hard-core off roading and know they are going to be hitting things.Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPmeOVER
I rarely hit stuff off road. one tire on one rock, the other on another, Im more concerned with the pumpkin, i figure the tie rod is pretty safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
How did this end up? what components are going in?
Im still up in the air on it. And my garage has been out of comission for about 2 weeks with the new floor going in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pznivy
The floor is done, so now Im going to get my focus back on the jeep.
Have you looked at the RK stuff for steering? That stuff is heavy duty.
whats the order of operations here? Your going to start taking stuff apart right? what comes out first?
We are going to start with stabilizer, and then ball joints, work our way thru the remaining components.
Almost killed myself again last night.
Betty has been pretending nothings wrong for a few weeks. Making me think that maybe I overreacted to the time her steering pretty much failed.
God reminded me last night that she is unsafe in her current condition. I was on rt 20 in paterson NJ going north, and hit some little nothing bump. Boy, the truck lost her mind. LOL
As the front end lost its composure, I thought to myself, Just keep driving, she should right herself. Remember, im on a highway. She did not right herself. It was clear that she would not right herself. I had to stop completely for her to get a grip on herself.
My new synergy ball joints and fox stabilizer will be here on thursday.
I know the feeling, that is scary... Yep, you have classic case of worn out ball joints, and or un-even wear on your tires. In my case, ball joint on axle side of drag link had a TINY amount of vertical play, and ball joint on drivers side track bar was same. So, two different systems reacting against each other caused the wobble.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
Knowing that this was my issue, while I waited for my parts to arrive to correct it, I tested out a theory while driving. Fortunately for me I have a road that this would happen on that was a low speed back country road. The next time it happened, instead of driving straight hoping the wobble would go away, I instead steered hard left and right to try to force the wheels out of their opposing wobble. I sort of worked, the wobble went away but it was still a while for it to happen. Unfortunately, un-accelerated flight (I straight and no change in power) never seems to eliminate this when it happens.
Since replacing my ball joints I'm good, except I just got a little wobble back after I rotated my tires. It's starting to go away now that the tires are starting to wear back to what they should be. I keep checking all my ball joints over and over thinking maybe I have another one going bad, but they all feel pretty solid so far. I think I just learned a very valuable lesson on tire rotation. Rotate rear tires forward, take forward tires and cross to back. This way, your front tires are always tires that have already been on that side of the car, so the wear pattern is already more like what they will end up being versus being drastically different. Now, I didn't rotate like this because I was seeing some very goofy wear patterns on my tire and in this case, I distinctly wanted a particular tire on my left rear to try and fix some goofy feathering and miss-treading that I was seeing.