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  1. #11
    Senior Member Timmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepLab View Post
    For others following this thread, this post is directed at 40inchDozer, not JL. Its referring the the esp trac lights he has in the turn.

    As for the JL steering issues, we are going to change everything to make sure we get the culprit in one sitting. I do not want to change ball joints, put the truck back together and find that it was not the problem.

    Drag link
    Tie rod
    stabilizer
    ball joints

    whatever else I can unscrew and take off down there, its all going.
    Hey JL. For what it's worth, I just went through my bout of death wobble and finally got it isolated and corrected 100%. Before you go changing everything, be sure to do some good research to get good parts that truly eliminate death wobble. It's too easy to replace parts (and lots of them) thinking you'll fix it, only to realize later it was one little $15 part that needed to replace, not $400 worth of parts.

    For starters... Are you SURE you now have death wobble? Once a wobble, hey, it happens with heavy tires. If you start getting wobble over various pot holes, down un-even roads, when coming out of a turn, etc., then that is for sure death wobble.

    I'll tell you the one thing that surprised me is just how little "sloppiness" is required in various parts to create a huge wobble. In my case, my left tie rod end on my tie rod had just about 1/8" up and down movement, combined with about 1/8" up and down movement on the tie rod end on the right side of my drag link that it caused wobble. The left tie rod end cost me $15 to replace and took about 15 minutes. The tie rod end on the drag link is not replaceable, so I ended up going with a Synergy drag link. Synergy recently came out with an updated drag link that has a grease fitting at the top, BUT, their tie rod end actually has a spring in it to keep the tie rod end nice and snug throughout it's life of wearing down, and they also tested the link with NO grease for thousands of miles to see how it would hold up. It's a pretty impressive solution. The one trick I learned to help isolate the problem is to take channel lock pliers and put it vertical so you are on top and on bottom of the tie rod ends and then try to compress the tie rod end. They should not compress AT ALL. Mine did about 1/8". You have four tie rod ends to check. The two on the drag link and the two on the tie rod bar. It takes about 1 minute to check them all like this. I found this little trick on YouTube and I can try to look up the video again if you need to see a visual of this check.

    Also, another hint for you. TAKE OFF THE DAMN STABILIZER. I don't mean permanently here, just during your testing phase. The stabilizer masks tons of issues to the point that you'll have trouble trying to figure out if you resolved the issue or not. If you're Jeep is setup 100% correctly, then you actually don't need a stabilizer at all. The purpose of the stabilizer is not to prevent death wobble, it is to help with the feel of the steering so that you don't feel like the steering is super twitchy because everything is working so well. Sadly, many people will upgrade the steering stabilizer, or even go with dual stabilizers, in order to try and fix death wobble. All that does is mask it, until the stabilizers finally wear down and the wobble comes back.

    Lastly... What changes to your steering system have you done to date? Have you flipped your drag link? If so, did you re-located your track bar up to keep them in parallel with each other? If not, don't go relocating the track bar up thinking you're suppose to do this with a lift. You ONLY do it when you flip the drag link. Another check of this... When you decelerate hard, or accelerate hard, does the steering wheel either try to turn left or turn right on it's own? This is a sign that your drag link and track bar are not parallel to each other. If they are absolutely in correct orientation with each other, then a hard accelerate/decelerate should not move the steering wheel one bit.

    Sorry to provide so much commentary and questions if you already know this stuff. I would just hate to have possible first hand experience in getting rid of death wobble and not pass it along if I could be of some help. My final solution included a $250 Synergy drag link, a $15 tie-rod end for the left tie rod bar, and then a $20 track bar relocation bracket because the previous owner had the drag link flipped but didn't have the track bar relocated. The ultimate fixes weren't too bad (well, the removal of the OEM drag link from the pitman arm sucked) but figuring out what the fixes would be was the real problem.

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    Synergy Drag Link pics
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    Exploded view of Synergy tie rod end. Notice the spring at the top.
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    Last edited by Timmy; 09-02-2014 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Added picture
    2014 Jeep JKU Sahara, Manual - /OlllllllO\ - 4" Metal Cloak lift, 37" Toyo Open Country's on 20" XD Bully Rims, 4.56 Yukon gears, Mopar High Top Fenders, ARB Front Bull Bar Bumper, ARB Rear Bumper, Teraflex HD Tire Carrier, Teraflex Tire Carrier Accessory Mount, Twin Rotopax mount, Hi-Lift Jack mounted on front bumper, Reverse LED work lights, Warn 9.5ti winch, Synergy Drag Link, Trackbar Relocation Bracket, AMP Power Steps, JK1001 Radio, SpiderShade.

  2. #12
    ^^ Excellent Post. excellent info. Im on the sidelines for this one, but its info every lifted truck will need.

    My question is, how do you know when its right? Is it some crazy geometric equation? Or is it right or wrong. Meaning, is the install fool proof?

    Or do i need a shop to measure down to the millimeter and then do alignment afterwords?

    I'd like to do this and install myself, but need it to be completely correct. Need the keep my passengers in good shape.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Timmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pznivy View Post
    My question is, how do you know when its right? Is it some crazy geometric equation? Or is it right or wrong. Meaning, is the install fool proof?
    I'm assuming you are referring to the track bar and the drag link being parallel to each other? Just for reference for everyone, a non-parallel solution creates "bump steer" not "death wobble." They are two different issues entirely. To your question, I don't think it needs to be that accurate, it just needs to be close. Obviously, the closer it is, the better the ride, but it's not like if you are off 1/2" that you will have a bad ride and bump steer all over the place. I think with most Jeeps, we are so used to a little play in the steering that if you came to a stop and the wheel moves say 1 degree left, it's not going to drive you that bonkers. The bump steer that drives you nuts is when you are going over speed bumps and the wheel whips hard to the left say 5 degrees even though the Jeep tracks straight.

    Also, the fix is easy, I don't personally think you need an alignment afterwards. I replaced my own tie rod end on my tie rod bar, which certainly impacts the toe in/out of the wheels (that was to fix death wobble, not bump steer.) I then went for a drive and checked out how the vehicle drove, decided if I liked it or not, and came back and re-adjusted as needed. I noticed how my tires were wearing prior to this change and I noticed that the inside of my tires were wearing much faster than the outside. I realized this was because of too much toe-in from the shop that put the lift on, so I took some of that toe-in out and now my tires are wearing nice and even and the Jeep drives great! I just keep an eye on my tires on a regular basis to see how they are wearing. As for the drag link and alignment. Jeep and Syngergy has made this stupid simple to adjust. Basically, if you drive down the road and your steering wheel is not center, just shorten the drag link if the steering wheel is left of center while going straight, and extend the drag link if your steering wheel is right of center while going straight. Probably three or four trips up and down the road and you can pretty well get your steering wheel dead center while driving dead straight down a road.

    When I bought my Jeep and started to learn about the lift on it, bump steer, death wobble, and the dynamics of a solid axle under a body, that's when it all started to click with me. I never really realized that your front axle actually shifts left and right under the body depending on if the axle drops (say catchin' a little air, grin) or compresses under the Jeep (think speed bump.) Engineer Johnny had to find a way to prevent the steering wheel from moving/rotating as the drag link moved up and down, which obviously either shortened or elongated the distance from the wheel to the pitman arm of the steering. That is ultimately the purpose of the track bar, and why it is crucial that it is parallel with the drag link. When the suspension compresses, the track bar forces the axle to the passenger side every so slight, say 1" depending on how much it compresses, or pulls it to the drivers side if it drops. It needs to move the axle to the passenger side because as the axle comes up into the Jeep, the drag link comes up as well, and since the drag link comes up, one of two things must happen. Either A) the steering arm (pitman arm) needs to move to the drivers side since the distance itself is shortened, thereby creating "bump steer" or B) the axle must move to the passenger side, thereby keeping the distance from the pitman arm to the wheel the same, ala, no bump steer.

    So, long story short, it doesn't have to be exact, but obviously the closer the better. If you don't flip your drag link from the bottom to the top of the knuckle, then you really shouldn't need to relocate the track bar because Engineer Johnny at Chrysler already put those two in parallel with each other. The problem with not relocating though is that the angle for normal driving is now steeper, which naturally shifts the axle to the drivers side so they are not running in-line with the rear wheels. You can elongate the track bar and draglink to fix this, but the angle is still steep which means any compression will really move the axle to the drivers side a lot. To fix that, you ultimately want the drag link and the track bar as horizontal as possible, and they only way to make that happen is to flip the drag link to the top of the knuckle. Well, once you flip it, you track bar is no longer in parallel, so you now have to relocate that up by the same distance.

    Hope this helps anyone struggling with bump steer. Feel free to ask more questions, or there are already gobs of posts on this all over the web.

    A picture is worth a 1000 words on this subject, so here's a few that I found that help describe the situation better.
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    PS... All this does make you wonder... Why hasn't Engineer Johnny found a way to locate the steering box directly on the axle so the distance of the drag link NEVER changes to begin with?
    2014 Jeep JKU Sahara, Manual - /OlllllllO\ - 4" Metal Cloak lift, 37" Toyo Open Country's on 20" XD Bully Rims, 4.56 Yukon gears, Mopar High Top Fenders, ARB Front Bull Bar Bumper, ARB Rear Bumper, Teraflex HD Tire Carrier, Teraflex Tire Carrier Accessory Mount, Twin Rotopax mount, Hi-Lift Jack mounted on front bumper, Reverse LED work lights, Warn 9.5ti winch, Synergy Drag Link, Trackbar Relocation Bracket, AMP Power Steps, JK1001 Radio, SpiderShade.

  4. #14
    Whoa Timmy!

    You are killing it with the pics!

    This is great info. Im going to start tearing Betty's steering apart. If im gonna get in there, im going to strip it down completely and figure out whats going on.

    I will not just blame the stabilizer, (even though the stabilizer is definatly getting changed.)

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepLab View Post
    Whoa Timmy!

    You are killing it with the pics!

    This is great info. Im going to start tearing Betty's steering apart. If im gonna get in there, im going to strip it down completely and figure out whats going on.

    I will not just blame the stabilizer, (even though the stabilizer is definatly getting changed.)
    I'd like to see some pics if you find anything suspect.

  6. #16
    I talked to Synergy today. I wanted their perspective on the situation with my front end. They told me Tiimmy, "nailed it" .

    ill keep you all posted as I move forward dissecting the problem.

  7. #17
    So synergy components for this steering change? Are they the only game in town?

    Ive looked around for drag links and stuff. Dosent seem to be much out there.

  8. #18
    If you are going to get under there and screw with that stuff, change it all. leave nothing to chance. Nothing worse than a steering problem.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Timmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeepLab View Post
    I talked to Synergy today. I wanted their perspective on the situation with my front end. They told me Tiimmy, "nailed it" .
    Timma!!! (takes a bow.)

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    Last edited by Timmy; 09-04-2014 at 03:48 PM.
    2014 Jeep JKU Sahara, Manual - /OlllllllO\ - 4" Metal Cloak lift, 37" Toyo Open Country's on 20" XD Bully Rims, 4.56 Yukon gears, Mopar High Top Fenders, ARB Front Bull Bar Bumper, ARB Rear Bumper, Teraflex HD Tire Carrier, Teraflex Tire Carrier Accessory Mount, Twin Rotopax mount, Hi-Lift Jack mounted on front bumper, Reverse LED work lights, Warn 9.5ti winch, Synergy Drag Link, Trackbar Relocation Bracket, AMP Power Steps, JK1001 Radio, SpiderShade.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Timmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLIPmeOVER View Post
    So synergy components for this steering change? Are they the only game in town?

    Ive looked around for drag links and stuff. Dosent seem to be much out there.
    Oooooh, far from it. There are so many after markets in this area it is crazy. There is stuff that matches OEM, there is stuff like Synergy that is above par and massively stronger than original OEM. There are some out there that are actually very flexible for those times when you bash a rock. Here's a video of some tie rod bars whacking rocks, and you'll notice how there are two different after market ones in the video. The first one is a steel bar that is VERY stiff and strong and doesn't bend (compared to OEM.) The second one is an aluminum one and it bends and returns back to shape. You pick which is best for you...

    2014 Jeep JKU Sahara, Manual - /OlllllllO\ - 4" Metal Cloak lift, 37" Toyo Open Country's on 20" XD Bully Rims, 4.56 Yukon gears, Mopar High Top Fenders, ARB Front Bull Bar Bumper, ARB Rear Bumper, Teraflex HD Tire Carrier, Teraflex Tire Carrier Accessory Mount, Twin Rotopax mount, Hi-Lift Jack mounted on front bumper, Reverse LED work lights, Warn 9.5ti winch, Synergy Drag Link, Trackbar Relocation Bracket, AMP Power Steps, JK1001 Radio, SpiderShade.

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