Prodigy Performance 3.6 Turbo DIY Install

[Snarf77]

I've been testing the new tune from Prodigy for a couple days now. Low RPM power/driveability is SOOOO much better now. At this point, it's been so long since I've driven with a stock engine, that I honestly can't tell whether this new tune has simply returned low RPMs to stock power/driveability, or whether it's better than stock now. It's really hard to pinpoint the RPM at which the turbo starts feeling noticeably more powerful than stock.

The new tune made 182 hp and 180 ft-lbs torque on Prodigy's test jeep (up from their previous claim of 159 hp and 173 ft-lbs). I don't really feel an increase in max acceleration from the peak torque gain, but I do feel like the torque carries through to red line better without fading away as much. Can't wait to see a new dyno chart from Prodigy.

With the improvements to low end torque, I suspected that boost might build at low RPMs a bit better. With the tune producing more power, that would result in more exhaust gasses, which should provide more power to the turbo to generate more boost. Here's the results:




NOTE: Because of the way that different "channels" of data in the data log are updated out of sync from each other, the data points in the chart can be off by up to about 100 RPM. It looks like the new tune causes a bit less boost where it steeply climbs between 2800 and 3800 rpm, but I suspect that is just an artifact from out-of-sync data being paired up. This is really only a significant problem on the part of the chart where the curve is very steep.

Looks like my prediction is correct! More boost in the low RPM range. I have no explanation for why I got more peak boost this time.

So here's the updated boost curve alone:




And the update comparison chart:




Based on the new boost curve, I sure would expect some noteworthy gains over stock starting around 2000 rpm. Someone still needs to get a turbo jeep and stock jeep on the same dyno for a good comparison dyno chart...

I also have the new Prodigy tune and have been using it for a couple days. The power delivery below 2000 rpm is a huge improvement even over the previous improvement. I need to sort out many of the small issues pickles has discussed in this thread (PCV, oil catch, etc) as prodigy offers OEM solutions. After the details are sorted out, I'll make another effort to get a stock/boosted dyno shootout on the books.

[AGOM]

I have been running the tune for 3days now and like you all the improvments are verry noticable, the engine is running much smoother and the acceleration and power delivery comes in steady, also the starting issue is no more so far and i hope it stays that way.
I did however find some small leek at the up pipe going to the turbo and that was fixed.
I have not seen the temp Issue come again as i described previously.
Overall verry happy with the changes this tune made.

Has anyone considered a wastgate controlloer? Wouldnt they help stablize the compressor even more and stop the possibility of surging?

Regarding heat wraps, i wraped my exhaust prior to instalation with Titanium wrap, i did not do that expecting any performance gains but only to keep engin bay temperatures down.
Im now also looking for solution to relocate the trans cooler, the way its set up now is ok with the cool temp we have but once we move into summer and we start to see temp of high 40'sC and high humidity my radiator will struggle with all that is fitted infront of it.
I welcom any ideas in this regard.

[Bkeef]

I'm running new tune as well. Much smoother acceleration particularly in low rpm.


Strange thing though after the tune I threw a P0304 code which is a misfire on number 4 cylinder. During install the shop had a P0404 code which is diff but same cylinder I suppose.

I can't get to shop until Monday but will have them check coil and plug.

Vehicle doesn't appear to be running rough or anything. I'm also curious why the former tune sort of suppressed this issue if in fact it's not a glitch.

If the light was not on I wouldnt know if anything is wrong. Seems to run fine otherwise.
BK

[Timmy]

Hey guys,

I JUST received an email from APR, the manufacturer of the ECU tune on my Audi A4. They claim they just released a new tune that significantly increases total HP/Tq. While reading through this, there was one line that frankly shocked me. Apparently on newer A4's, they are now E85 compatible, AND, APR's tune for E85 now gets more gains then their tune for 100 Octane fuel!!!

"By adding E85 to the tank on the Ethanol compatible variants, automatic Ethanol map blending adds even more power, resulting in 85 horsepower and 135 ft-lbs of torque."

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_up..._long_b85.html

I honestly had NO idea that E85 could actually provide more power than regular octane gas. Any chance our Jeeps are E85 compatible? Any chance any of the SC/Turbo tuners has or can create a tune for E85? Also, I guess I never asked this, do any of the SC/Turbo manufacturers provide the ability to switch between different tunes for different octanes easily? I can do this in my Audi in about 30 seconds right now via the cruise control buttons. I have a 91 octane and 93 octane tune loaded in the ECU and I just switch between them as needed. Sadly, WA doesn't seem to have many 93 octane stations so I've had to downgrade to the 91 octane tune.

[UselessPickles]

A quick search found a forum post from someone with a 2012 Wrangler that got confirmation from a service department that it is NOT compatible with E85.

As far as I know, all the FI kits for the 2012+ Wrangler are now using the Diablosport InTune for installing the tune, and only one tune is provided. The InTune can hold multiple tunes on it, but it takes about 10-15 minutes to go through the process of installing a different tune. No "quick" switching between tunes. Prodigy's tune requires minimum 91 octane.

I have been running the tune for 3days now and like you all the improvments are verry noticable, the engine is running much smoother and the acceleration and power delivery comes in steady

It seems that everyone is in agreement that the new tune is a huge improvement. Now the question becomes: has anyone experienced any issues with the new tune (besides Bkeef's strange error code)?


I'm still running into a jerk/lurch in acceleration sometimes while accelerating through about 2500-2700 rpms. This is with part-throttle, somewhat quick acceleration in 1st gear and sometimes noticeable in 2nd gear. A typical situation where I experience this is turning onto a major road from a complete stop, not stomping on the throttle racing, but just smoothly pressing on the pedal to get up to speed reasonably quickly. Right as I pass through about 2500-2700 rpm, the Jeep will behave as if I quickly lifted off the throttle slightly, then jabbed at the throttle to briefly accelerate more quickly than I previously was. It shakes the Jeep enough for a passenger to notice it and think that I was being sloppy/jerky with my throttle control, or even think that I had just completed a rough shift (manual transmission).

I'm not sure if this would even show up as an issue with automatic transmissions, because it seems to require accelerating through that RPM range within a certain range of engine load, and I'm not sure whether the auto trans will allow it.

Anyway, that is the only complaint I have about this new tune as of now. Everything else about it has been awesome. I would like to try to determine whether what I am experiencing is is unique to me and my jeep (less likely to be a problem with the tune), or is anyone else still experiencing a similar problem (very likely to be a problem with the tune).

Has anyone considered a wastgate controlloer? Wouldnt they help stablize the compressor even more and stop the possibility of surging?

There should not be any concern about compressor surge. Compressor surge would be caused by an improperly sized turbo for the application. If there was compressor surge with this turbo, we would all be experiencing it.

If an install error, exhaust leak, etc., were somehow the cause of compressor surge, a boost controller would not help avoid this, because a boost controller only regulates boost pressure. Boost controllers only have the ability to get more boost than what the wastegate spring would naturally allow, which means it holds the wastegate closed and forces the turbo to work harder than usual (more likely to get into a surge condition).

[UselessPickles]

Here's an awesome (long and informative) article about how intercoolers work, and how the decision of when to use intercooler water spray most effectively/efficiently is more complicated than most people assume. Their solution is an "intelligent" water spray controller monitors ambient temperature, intercooler core temperature, and fuel injector duty cycle to spray the intercooler when it needs it, and conserve water when it isn't needed.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0527

[gbaumann]

I'm still running into a jerk/lurch in acceleration sometimes while accelerating through about 2500-2700 rpms. This is with part-throttle, somewhat quick acceleration in 1st gear and sometimes noticeable in 2nd gear. A typical situation where I experience this is turning onto a major road from a complete stop, not stomping on the throttle racing, but just smoothly pressing on the pedal to get up to speed reasonably quickly. Right as I pass through about 2500-2700 rpm, the Jeep will behave as if I quickly lifted off the throttle slightly, then jabbed at the throttle to briefly accelerate more quickly than I previously was. It shakes the Jeep enough for a passenger to notice it and think that I was being sloppy/jerky with my throttle control, or even think that I had just completed a rough shift (manual transmission).

Could not have written a better description of the "surge" us magnuson guys experience. Spot on right down to the RMPs! And I do have an auto trans. I know you're chasing turbo issues but I offer the observation in wondering if the aftermarket tuners could be missing the same thing regardless of the forced induction system.

[gbaumann]

Has anyone considered a wastgate controlloer? Wouldnt they help stablize the compressor even more and stop the possibility of surging?.

I agree with Pickles. That said, one of the forced induction companies told me off the record that they are considering all possibilities in working through calibration issues include electro-mechanical boost/bypass control to eliminate spring/vacuum actuation and tie the boost to the ECU mapping. I do believe computer controlled bypass/waste gate is something we may see in the future. For us supercharger guys a vacuum bypass works great when you only want boost at wide open throttle one quarter mile at a time. But as Pickles points out his little trouble spot in the mid to upper 2,000 rmp range happens at part throttle. I don't know waste gate theory in turbocharging (despite having several volvos, audis and a 1980 turbo trans am ((worst motor ever!!))).

[AGOM]

Pickles, this is what I have been trying to explain for sometime, I had this problem before the tune and after the tune it's still there but not as before.
The jerkiness, boost coming in and out with no change in pedal input, I even tried driving with manual shifting, but still the same.
If I go for a quick acceleration it will pick up quick and then have that pause and continues on, it's as if Its not comfortable with small pedal inputs, it wants you to floor it all the time.
But it's weird that you got it after the tune!

[UselessPickles]

For us supercharger guys a vacuum bypass works great when you only want boost at wide open throttle one quarter mile at a time. But as Pickles points out his little trouble spot in the mid to upper 2,000 rmp range happens at part throttle. I don't know waste gate theory in turbocharging (despite having several volvos, audis and a 1980 turbo trans am ((worst motor ever!!))).

A supercharger bypass valve is very different from a turbo wastegate. At any given engine speed, the supercharger is always capable for generating full boost for (for that engine speed). The bypass valve allows that air to recirculate back to the supercharger inlet and essentially let the supercharger "free spin". When pressing on the throttle and reducing manifold vacuum, if that vacuum-controlled bypass valve closes too suddenly, you get a sudden harsh transition from no boost to full boost.

A turbo can only produce boost when there's enough engine load to produce enough exhaust to spool the turbo, and the wastegate is there to LIMIT boost (by bypassing exhaust around the turbine), not bypass boost back to the turbo inlet. With the turbo and wastegate, there's no tipping point with manifold vacuum that instantly moves you from no boost to full boost. As you press the throttle, you create more engine load, more exhaust, spool the turbo more, produce more boost, then the wastegate eventually opens as you approach the target peak boost to prevent boost from continuing to rise. The wastegate never causes a harsh transition, aside from noise. If you pay attention, you can hear it open because you can suddenly hear a different "whoosh" sound of exhaust flowing through the waste gate. Just for fun, I have played with feathering the throttle to stay right at that transition point. I can hear the wastegate repeatedly opening and closing, but there's never a sudden transition in power in this situation.

NOTE: wastegate behavior will be different between my install vs Prodigy's official install, because of this: http://jeeplab.com/showthread.php?13...ull=1#post3590

At part throttle, I can get my wastegate to open because it is reaching the target boost in the intake system before the throttle body (where my wastegate boost source is), even though my intake manifold may be a couple PSI below the target. The official Prodigy setup has the wastegate boost source as the intake manifold, so at part throttle, there may be situations where the wastegate stays closed trying to reach the target boost in the intake manifold, but the pressure on the other side of the half-way closed throttle could be above the target boost level, working the turbo harder than desired (hmmmm... I wonder if this could lead to compressor surge in these situations?).

But it's weird that you got it after the tune!

I've always had this issue. It was one of the first things I noticed on my very first test drive after installing stage 1 last June.