Great thread. We are going to need a sound bite when its done. Maybe line the HEMI up with BB and see what happens.
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Great thread. We are going to need a sound bite when its done. Maybe line the HEMI up with BB and see what happens.
God willing you will break your rear window when accelerating!
Can I borrow the carbon fiber hood and PM Forged wheels? I suspect she weighs too much outrun Black Betty. I heard somewhere that Betty can chirp 'me in second gear. Sound bite coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
So how much horsepower does this engine make?
And more importantly... will there be a dyno chart so we can see the torque/power curves at the wheels?
It makes 470hp peak and 470lb ft peak. I have no idea at what rpms they occur. I'm sure they are going to tell me no driving over 50 mph for 1000 miles or some other thing until the motor is brokeen in. I will put it on a dyno if I can get time at the shop Sweat Pea went to. I think it's not too far from where I work. I'd love to see the rear wheel numbers!
The Wrangler's drivetrain typically causes about 30% loss on dynos, so don't be shocked/confused if that 470 hp/tq turns into only about 330 hp/tq on the dyno.
This dyno chart of a 5.7 Hemi Wrangler shows about 27% drivetrain loss from the rated 372 hp:
http://www.jk-forum.com/forums/attac...9&d=1244913655
If you have a similar 27% loss, that would put you around 345 hp/tq at the wheels.
The biggest problem is the automatic transmission-- the torque converter is energy sink...
You need a road trip to get that puppy broken in. The dyno is in hawthorne nj. We can finally meet and strap it down.
Maybe even get snarf up here with the turbo to do same day dynos. Everyones gear ratios are off now tho. JG. 4.88 BB 4.56
Baumann, your truck needs a name....
I've heard that the JK with auto trans is one of (if not the) most parasitic drive trains out there. The only trucks that I've seen making 400hp at the wheels are not naturally aspirated. Before making the swap I spoke with Arrington Performance and Southern Hot Rod who both can get you to 400hp at the wheels with some limited warranty. My craziness ends at whatever the 392 can produce at the wheels.Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles
I'm in. Let's have a JeepLab Spring Dyno Day. And (to be named truck) is turning 4:10s.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
It's not just the auto trans. Manual trans produces similar dyno results. And as far as real world acceleration performance, the auto actually wins because it shifts faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaiserBill
The torque converter is not the source of the energy loss because it locks up completely at some point. At low road speeds, the torque converter is even a benefit because it lets the engine rev up to about 2500 rpm and actually multiplies torque a bit. Better torque/bower than if you were to slip a clutch at the same rpm.
I still think the manual is more fun though :)
I'd guess that the source of the loss is simply the heavy drivetrain components (axles, driveshafts, components in the transfer case, flywheel) with high moment of inertia. The flywheel must be quite heavy. I drove a loaner Caravan with the 3.6 pentastar, and it revved like a race car in neutral with a throttle blip compared to the Wrangler.
400 hp at the wheels with the broad torque curve of the V8 would just be insane. And probably insanely expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaumann
Torque converts can increase the torque of the engine that is true. However, they always have a greater loss of power because of the heat issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles
http://image.superchevy.com/f/techni...-converter.jpg
And if you notice more transmissions that are marketed as automatics are getting away from the torque converter system because of the loss of power they create. Instead they are using dual clutches which have less power loss.
As for lock up torque converters they still show power losses due to the heating of the fluid within the torque converter itself. Also, that heat is usually transferred to the transmission itself more effective and another net loss of power is registered.
Usually, most of the literature on this will say that 2.5% to 5% power loss over that of a manual or AMT gearbox is shown.
However, as you correctly pointed out before the torque multiplication affect of the torque converter is why it is often used in heavy equipment applications where at low rpm the the engine's torque is too low to maintain forward motion without riding the clutch. That is why the Unimog has always had a torque converter hooked to a manual gearbox (now AMT) for use on railways and so on. Also heavy hauling vehicles usually like to have a torque converter for the same reason. But they do show greater signs of power loss overall.
I read a lot of technical stuff about these things.
Me, I think manuals are the only way to go. But, what I was saying is that if the Wrangler for some unknown reason shows such a high loss of power in the drive train as 27% then it is a good bet the Manual is at the lower end of this spectrum and the automatic is at the higher end of this statistic.
I think an update on the status of this hemi conversion is overdue...
Right you are sir! And no sooner than I saw your post did I receive the following video.Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles
IT'S ALIVE! IT'S ALIVE!
https://youtu.be/lCLNjimNFUU
Nice! How much more tidying up and testing is left to do before you can pick it up?
Are you going to do tons of driving this weekend to try to get through the entire break-in period ASAP?
I pick it up tomorrow at noon. I'll put every mile I can on her! And then report back with pics and videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles
I've got her home! Awesome driving experience so far.
Is she a rocket? The name is "cherry bomb"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMDn6V7ZLhEQuote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW_H...V7ZLhE&index=4
So, you want to call the Jeep after the Runaways' Song????
She's a rocket! Feels like she lost 1,000 lbs even with 400 lbs more motor. Shifting is much improved. Super smooth. Sound is unbelievable. I was unprepared for the growl. You gotta see the body flex when it starts! There's a small exhaust leak that needs a clamp not supplied by AEV/Flowmaster. It'll be here next week. Otherwise no other issues on day 1.
That sounds great...
Is it really 400 lbs more than the Pentastar? Do you have any exact weights for either the 6.4 or the 3.6 that it replaced?
AEV kit comes with 1" leveling spacers for the front springs. Instructions say the drop comes from added 400lbs that the 6.4 has over the 3.6. It's an iron V8 vs an all aluminum V6. I tend to believe them.Quote:
Originally Posted by UselessPickles
Spent some time this morning driving around town and along back roads. At 1,500 rpm in 5th gear (automatic trans) I'm gong about 42 mph (4:10s; 35s). So far I find I can do most of my driving under 3,000 rpm. At 80 on the highway she's at 2,700. Most importantly when I'm going uphill on the highway in 5th gear I can accelerate nicely without downshifting! If I press a bit harder on the pedal she downshifts to 4th and simply takes off! I've got to get her to Ross for a test drive!
Dont leave him alone with it, he will spray it black, put on a carbon fiber hood and tell you he has no idea what your talking about when you come back to pick it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaumann
(thats what id do)
nice talk. He'd just tell me to turn it on. The growl would give it away instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexx19
You should be done with break-in mileage by now. Have you floored it yet?
Yes. I've floored it gently if such a thing is possible. I'm waiting for a dry day and a moment to get a 0 to 60 time. I have a Mygig Lockpick behind the radio which reads data from the CAN-BUS. It has a 0 to 60 record function. I'll try tomorrow. First I want to check the speedometer with my phone and garmin to see if its accurate.
SOUND BYTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and i love the avatar baumann. you earned it.
Sorry guys, no 0-60 or sound byte today. I GOT DEATH WOBBLE! Scariest moment ever. Steering wheel went crazy and came out of my hands. Felt like the front end was off the ground and trying to tear itself apart! I'm going to re-read Ross' thread on diagnosis and fix. Guys at OK4WD will get me in ASAP and think I'm headed for a JKS or Metalcloak trackbar. They also recommend an aftermarket tie rod and some other part (I don't remember). They don't like the use of heavy duty steering stabilizers. Let me know your thoughts.
Give us the complete picture, in my case, the steering was fine until I'd hit a bump with the wheels turned slightly. Then the front end would go crazy until I brought the truck to a complete stop. Then, it would right itself and I could drive again.
Did it come on with impact? even very slight impact? Can you make it happen at will? When testing, Id hit traintracks with the wheels turned and feel for vibration.
My first thought was to change everything too, but the aftermarket steering stuff may not be as dead on as stock. And the stock components are pretty beefy. Once we got to the problem in my case it was an easy fix, but we used stock components to be sure to preserve the geometry.
I have a big ass RK solid steel track bar.
To help find the source of your death wobble, remove your steering stabilizer all together while doing some low speed testing. The purpose of the stabilizer is to improve how the steering feels, not to stop death wobble. You should be able to hit a 2' pot hole at 60 mph and not get death wobble WITHOUT a steering stabilizer.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaumann
In my case, the entire source of my wobble came from a worn out passenger side tie rod end on my drag link bar and a worn out drivers side tie rod end on the tie rod bar. Since the tie rod end on the drag link passenger side is forged, I had to purchase a new drag link (went with a Synergy one.) For the tie rod bar, I ordered an OEM aftermarket replacement tie rod end for about $20. Put both on and the problem was solved.
I found both of these issues by using a set of pliers and putting them above and below the tie rod end and trying to compress the fittings. Each side had about 1/16" of play in them. If they were tight there, I would have jacked up the axle on both sides and then had someone move the steering wheel back and forth to see if any of the tie rod ends were lagging in movement at all. There is a good video on youtube showing this.
Point being... You can solve this yourself, and usually for cheaper than you realize. It takes VERY LITTLE wear on your tie rod ends to get death wobble. In all cases though, please don't go down the road of a beefed up steering stabilizer. That just masks the real problem. You should be able to drive the Jeep all day long without the stabilizer. In fact, I was just about to pull my stabilizer off in order to isolate a problem of the Jeep pulling a bit to the left now that I have my new upper/lower control arms on. Because I have a gas charged stabilizer, it doesn't auto-center at neutral but instead always wants to extend, thus, it might be the reason my Jeep always pulls to one side slightly, or it could be that I didn't get a measurement on a control arm right.
^^^THIS!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
It tiny fractions of wear throw off the whole front end and you think your jeep has a huge problem, when really, its an hour of sniffing out the problem, and then a second hour of replacing the worn out end.
mechanics know it feels like the end of the world behind the wheel, and they will make you pay for it. So make sure they know your not a dummy. They will sell you a full suspension change in some cases if they think they can get away with it. At the end of the day its a $50 part from the dealer and your fixed.
It is highly unlikely that you managed to accumulate 1/16th of inch of tie end wear in the few days you've had the vehicle back from the shop. Did they have to change or more any of the steering components to put the new engine in? That is where I would look for a problem first. But, I think that you're right to take it right back to the shop. I wouldn't even try to self-diagnosis this problem.
I second all of the above!
First, the wobble comes on after impact when turning the wheels to the left. A little bump can do it. But a decent bump will definitely do it. Need to be going somewhere between 45-65 mph. Otherwise the harmonics don't keep the wave going. I can make it happen.
I've been feeling the "lingering" feedback in the wheel for some time now and suspected that DW was coming. But as they say - if you think you might have DW then you don't. If you have it, you know it. Well, I know it and now I know what it feels like coming on. The hemi simply put her over the top with the added weight. It was only a matter of time.
I go to OK4WD at 7:30 a.m. for a diagnosis of what's loose/worn and to get a new track bar and alignment. Regardless of what parts are worn and causing the DW I'm told that the stock track bar isn't designed for the weight of the V8. Add the weight of the AEV bumper and the winch and there you have it. It's a known issue.
I don't have a big steering stabilizer. It's tiny. Again, advice I got from the shop. They tell me that the front end needs to react to the pitch of the road and turning. Kind of like you're supposed to feel the weight of the truck fall to the downhill side of the road and take the slack up in the steering wheel in the opposite direction. Big stabilizers (and two way? stabilizers especially) can prevent that intentional change with the pavement and can even slow the wheels when returning to center causing excess wear and masking real problems.
I'm not going to change everything. I'm going to be under the truck with a tech before they open in the morning and go through the components one-at-a-time. The track bar is a given and I'm OK with that.
Did you have the RK track bar before you got DW? If so, I wonder if the tie rod ends then became the weaker "link" in the chain of front end components.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepLab
I did have the rk trackbar before DW. The problem in my case was the tie end from the pitman arm. Nothing to do with the trackbar.
I used an oem end to make sure the geometry would stay perfect. Like one above mentioned. I think I spent 70 bucks.
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